04-27-2019, 05:03 PM
So I got a detailed response about my orchestration of the Pathetique Sonata here:
Pathetique Sonata for Orchestra
Here is the detailed response I got:
Here are my thoughts on the response as I was reading it(response in quotes, my thoughts in bold text):
At least I'm not putting a forte dynamic in the first octave of the flute. That would be impossible, even for an advanced flutist. And you don't often hear the flute as a separate entity in tutti chords anyway, just listen to Beethoven's Eroica symphony. Do you hear the flute as a flute sound in the beginning tutti chords of the first movement? Probably not. But it would sound different if the flute wasn't there. All the woodwinds add color to the predominant strings and brass but aren't really heard over the massive forte of the other instruments. Are you saying that my flute part is worse than Beethoven's because the flute won't be heard over the massive forte? Because Beethoven's flute part isn't heard over the massive forte either in his Eroica symphony.
At least I am not going lower than piano in dynamics here. Pianissimo is hard on the oboe. About the same amount of pressure is used to play pianissimo on the oboe as is used to play fortissimo on the clarinet, mainly because of the double reed vs single reed difference. And are you suggesting that I raise the entire oboe part up an octave in the Grave? As for the number of each instrument, that is indeterminate at this point. I have no idea if I will be premiering this with a smaller, less experienced orchestra like a high school orchestra or if I will be premiering this with a professional but still local orchestra like the Columbus Symphony Orchestra. And what if I wrote it for 6 horns but I only have 4 horns in the actual orchestra? Who would take the 5th and 6th horn parts? 2nd and 3rd clarinet? 2 trombones?
Without using horns and trumpets in the first 4 bars of this there is nothing I can really do to improve it without simply not having the bass woodwinds which I would rather not do or using the piccolo which I was told was unfit for the Grave. And writing this C minor chord according to the harmonic series in all the instruments playing it is simply impractical. The flute would be like what, 2 octaves up from where it is now? Given that it is in the second octave already, that would mean that I essentially would be writing the flute part in the piccolo staff. Also, you can see writing according to the harmonic series in the C minor chord if you look at the cellos and double basses. The cellos being an octave up from the lowest double basses in terms of pitch and the double basses themselves being divisi.
Are you talking about the first violins being doubled with the flute? That makes sense if you consider the fact that the first violins are in general the highest strings at any given moment and the flute is the highest of the woodwinds that doesn't transpose up or down an octave. As for the piccolo not being used as its own instrument, look again at the apotheosis. The piccolo while it may be doubling the flute, is an octave above the flute. That is enough for me to consider the piccolo to be doing its own role. As for the registral extension of the flute with the piccolo, it all has to do with which notes are difficult and which ones are impossible on the C concert flute. If the notes are just difficult, I consider lowering the flute by an octave. If that leads to the lower notes being impossible, then I resort to putting the difficult and/or impossible notes in the piccolo and then when it goes into the easier range, I have the flute playing again. And besides, this also gives the flutist a well needed break to take a deep breath before it starts playing again.
If I am writing for orchestra, a contrabassoon part will be expected unless it is for an orchestra that doesn't have a contrabassoon. The bass clarinet has a more predominant role in the second Grave section where it plays the bass notes while the bassoonist gets a break after playing the very lowest note possible on bassoon. It also makes it possible to play a 4 note chord in the bass woodwinds if there are only 3 bassoonists in the orchestra. Alto trombone extends the range of the trombones to higher notes that are typically trumpet pitches. So I could use the alto trombone in call and response with the trumpet if I ever decide to do that. Also, it helps in the case of the trombones and tuba chorale that I have starting at bar 5. It prevents there from being difficult notes for tenor trombone(which just shows up as trombone in Musescore)
I honestly didn't think about that when having the contrabassoon double the double basses. Perhaps I should have the bassoon play this an octave above the double basses. Or maybe keep the contrabassoon part and just have it pulse on the beat instead of on the half beat, so having a quarter note pulse in the contrabassoon against an eighth note tremolo in the double basses. And the eighth note tremolo is way easier for the orchestra to time right than my initial idea of alternating the octaves between the instruments because there aren't eighth rests all over the place.
What do you think of my orchestration so far?
Pathetique Sonata for Orchestra
Here is the detailed response I got:
Quote:Very unbalanced and unidiomatic orchestration. There's a lot to go through here, but let's start with the first chord. The woodwind writing is horrible. The flute is in it's lower mid-register and will not be heard over the massive forte of the other instruments. The oboe is way to low in it's register to succesfully play the C in piano. It is very unclear how many of each instrument you have so that has to be clearly written out (my concern is primarily the clarinets and horns). The chord is voiced very badly with very thick harmony at the bottom and rather sparse higher up. Try to write tutti chords according to the harmonic series.
I don't understand at all why you want to double the melody line with the flute. And you don't use the piccolo as it's own instrument but rather as an extension of the flutes register. I also don't understand the need for bass clarinet, contrabassoon and alto trombone. You can do just fine without them.
Bar 11 you write the eighth note tremolo from the original score and write super fast double-tounge in the contrabassoon. This is super unidiomatic as well as tiring and on the border of unplayability for a longer period of time.
These are just a few things to think about. Balance is important too, remember that. I'm also working on orchestrating the Pathetique right now (not on musescore), as well as all the other Beethoven sonatas. It's a very big project and it takes time but it is definitely worth it!
Here are my thoughts on the response as I was reading it(response in quotes, my thoughts in bold text):
Quote:Very unbalanced and unidiomatic orchestration.What else would you expect? I am taking the piano score and orchestrating it. Of course its going to be unidiomatic for orchestra. The Liszt transcription of Beethoven's 5th is unidiomatic for piano but that doesn't make it a bad score. It is far from being a bad score. In fact, it is possibly better than the original orchestral score that Beethoven wrote.
Quote:There's a lot to go through here, but let's start with the first chord. The woodwind writing is horrible. The flute is in it's lower mid-register and will not be heard over the massive forte of the other instruments.
At least I'm not putting a forte dynamic in the first octave of the flute. That would be impossible, even for an advanced flutist. And you don't often hear the flute as a separate entity in tutti chords anyway, just listen to Beethoven's Eroica symphony. Do you hear the flute as a flute sound in the beginning tutti chords of the first movement? Probably not. But it would sound different if the flute wasn't there. All the woodwinds add color to the predominant strings and brass but aren't really heard over the massive forte of the other instruments. Are you saying that my flute part is worse than Beethoven's because the flute won't be heard over the massive forte? Because Beethoven's flute part isn't heard over the massive forte either in his Eroica symphony.
Quote:The oboe is way to low in it's register to succesfully play the C in piano. It is very unclear how many of each instrument you have so that has to be clearly written out (my concern is primarily the clarinets and horns).
At least I am not going lower than piano in dynamics here. Pianissimo is hard on the oboe. About the same amount of pressure is used to play pianissimo on the oboe as is used to play fortissimo on the clarinet, mainly because of the double reed vs single reed difference. And are you suggesting that I raise the entire oboe part up an octave in the Grave? As for the number of each instrument, that is indeterminate at this point. I have no idea if I will be premiering this with a smaller, less experienced orchestra like a high school orchestra or if I will be premiering this with a professional but still local orchestra like the Columbus Symphony Orchestra. And what if I wrote it for 6 horns but I only have 4 horns in the actual orchestra? Who would take the 5th and 6th horn parts? 2nd and 3rd clarinet? 2 trombones?
Quote:The chord is voiced very badly with very thick harmony at the bottom and rather sparse higher up. Try to write tutti chords according to the harmonic series.
Without using horns and trumpets in the first 4 bars of this there is nothing I can really do to improve it without simply not having the bass woodwinds which I would rather not do or using the piccolo which I was told was unfit for the Grave. And writing this C minor chord according to the harmonic series in all the instruments playing it is simply impractical. The flute would be like what, 2 octaves up from where it is now? Given that it is in the second octave already, that would mean that I essentially would be writing the flute part in the piccolo staff. Also, you can see writing according to the harmonic series in the C minor chord if you look at the cellos and double basses. The cellos being an octave up from the lowest double basses in terms of pitch and the double basses themselves being divisi.
Quote:I don't understand at all why you want to double the melody line with the flute. And you don't use the piccolo as it's own instrument but rather as an extension of the flutes register.
Are you talking about the first violins being doubled with the flute? That makes sense if you consider the fact that the first violins are in general the highest strings at any given moment and the flute is the highest of the woodwinds that doesn't transpose up or down an octave. As for the piccolo not being used as its own instrument, look again at the apotheosis. The piccolo while it may be doubling the flute, is an octave above the flute. That is enough for me to consider the piccolo to be doing its own role. As for the registral extension of the flute with the piccolo, it all has to do with which notes are difficult and which ones are impossible on the C concert flute. If the notes are just difficult, I consider lowering the flute by an octave. If that leads to the lower notes being impossible, then I resort to putting the difficult and/or impossible notes in the piccolo and then when it goes into the easier range, I have the flute playing again. And besides, this also gives the flutist a well needed break to take a deep breath before it starts playing again.
Quote:I also don't understand the need for bass clarinet, contrabassoon and alto trombone. You can do just fine without them.
If I am writing for orchestra, a contrabassoon part will be expected unless it is for an orchestra that doesn't have a contrabassoon. The bass clarinet has a more predominant role in the second Grave section where it plays the bass notes while the bassoonist gets a break after playing the very lowest note possible on bassoon. It also makes it possible to play a 4 note chord in the bass woodwinds if there are only 3 bassoonists in the orchestra. Alto trombone extends the range of the trombones to higher notes that are typically trumpet pitches. So I could use the alto trombone in call and response with the trumpet if I ever decide to do that. Also, it helps in the case of the trombones and tuba chorale that I have starting at bar 5. It prevents there from being difficult notes for tenor trombone(which just shows up as trombone in Musescore)
Quote:Bar 11 you write the eighth note tremolo from the original score and write super fast double-tounge in the contrabassoon. This is super unidiomatic as well as tiring and on the border of unplayability for a longer period of time.
I honestly didn't think about that when having the contrabassoon double the double basses. Perhaps I should have the bassoon play this an octave above the double basses. Or maybe keep the contrabassoon part and just have it pulse on the beat instead of on the half beat, so having a quarter note pulse in the contrabassoon against an eighth note tremolo in the double basses. And the eighth note tremolo is way easier for the orchestra to time right than my initial idea of alternating the octaves between the instruments because there aren't eighth rests all over the place.
What do you think of my orchestration so far?