Thinking about an article about free & affordable orchestral libraries

[Samulis]

(07-21-2019, 12:17 PM)Nayrb Wrote:

(07-21-2019, 05:15 AM)Samulis Wrote: I put together a very short history of sampling as part of my first draft at making video guide to sampling. It's super abridged, but here it is-
https://youtu.be/2cNQA0L9mkM?t=1471

Please release a subscription based true legato triangle collaboration with Hans Zimmer.

You mean Zans Himmer? There's a difference... 

[Nayrb]

(07-21-2019, 04:56 PM)Samulis Wrote:

(07-21-2019, 12:17 PM)Nayrb Wrote:

(07-21-2019, 05:15 AM)Samulis Wrote: I put together a very short history of sampling as part of my first draft at making video guide to sampling. It's super abridged, but here it is-
https://youtu.be/2cNQA0L9mkM?t=1471

Please release a subscription based true legato triangle collaboration with Hans Zimmer.

You mean Zans Himmer? There's a difference... 

Oh, right! ...Of course

At least 10 RR per note. Left and right hand, dual mapped.

In all seriousness, that looks like a cool video project. Any plans to complete it? I like it for the humor as much as the information.

[Mattias Westlund]

(07-20-2019, 04:07 PM)Terry93D Wrote: the core, musical assessment is two tests: the Haydn test, which is the rendering of the first and last movements of Haydn's Symphony Nr. 80, as a test of how it performs in a realistic, classical situation (realism of balance and performance); and an "epic test," utilizing an original composition (yet to be written).

First off: I think this project is a wonderful idea, and I wish you the best of luck with it. If I can help in any way, let me know. I have a problem with the above statement though, and I'm pointing this out as a friendly heads-up before you get too far. So I'm not saying "boo, you're wrong!" Just a word of caution.

The thing is, rendering the same midi with different samples is an excercise in futility that will tell you absolutely NOTHING about the actual capabilities of the libraries in question. It will show their differences, yes, but it will also give people the wrong idea. "Wow, that sounded like crap. I'm not buying that one!". Basically this method ignores the fact that ALL orchestral libraries are different, with different strengths and weaknesses, a different sound, not to mention different functions and features. No two libraries have the exact same levels, or note attacks, or velocity layer mapping, or modwheel XF mapping, or keyswitches, and... well, you get the idea. Hell, some of them don't even come with all the instruments! The only way to truthfully showcase what a library can or can't do is to recreate the composition (Haydn in this case) from scratch with it, doing your darndest to work around its potential limitations. Maybe that's the way you were planning on doing it, but judging from the amount of libraries on your list I doubt it. That would take... years, probably.

So, bottom line: just piping the same midi through different libs is an unfair and misleading way of comparing orchestral libraries. There's simply soooo much more to a convincing and pleasant-sounding virtual orchestration.

Alternate approach? I don't know honestly. Personally I would much prefer just hearing short isolated snippets of some instruments included. A few notes on the violins, trumpets, percussion, and so on.

[Mattias Westlund]

(07-20-2019, 03:04 PM)Nayrb Wrote: In other news, I pulled out the Pro Samples Advanced Orchestra disc and realized that it was actually kind of disappointing, even back in 2006 (though the perc was still nice to have). And the packaging led me to believe it would include playable brass (it does not). I would hope that the full edition would be more useful. I sounds like a big part of that library is all those pre-recorded orchestral performances, or "building blocks," as they call them.

Hmm, not sure what version of Advanced Orchestra that is. I suppose there have been many releases over the years. I have three discs of the "original" AO (strings, winds and brass) and they're all multisampled separate instruments and sections with a surprising amount of detail and articulations for their time, even though a lot of it has aged badly. I do recall there being a separate Siedlaczec library with orchestral chords and stuff, and maybe that was baked into AO at some point.

[Nayrb]

(07-21-2019, 09:35 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: Hmm, not sure what version of Advanced Orchestra that is. I suppose there have been many releases over the years. I have three discs of the "original" AO (strings, winds and brass) and they're all multisampled separate instruments and sections with a surprising amount of detail and articulations for their time, even though a lot of it has aged badly. I do recall there being a separate Siedlaczec library with orchestral chords and stuff, and maybe that was baked into AO at some point.

Mine is a Best Service "Pro Samples" set from 2002 (so says the case). The proper name is, "Vol. 11, Classic Orchestra: from Advanced Orchestra." I also have their Quantum Leap Orchestral Brass, which was a littler more useful at the time (sounds like you might have had the same one; at least on Wesnoth?). The AO one just has a lot of percussion, a harp, pretty light selection of violins and winds, and a lot of those little phrases and riffs. It would have been better had they had fewer of the latter and used the disc space for more useful samples. You really don't get much more than maybe a playable violin section, flute, and bassoon, all sus only. I recall it being most useful for the percussion and the harp.

Not sure what you have, but I think this particular disc is the only one that was available through Pro Samples, based on what the packaging advertises. I remember getting it on sale because they were being discontinued. Both of the discs I have came with Audio, AIFF, Akai, EXS24, Halion, and open WAV sets. At the time I remember feeling stupid because I thought each was two discs of content. Actually it was just two discs of the same stuff in different formats.

[bigcat1969]

Any of you fellows want to come up with the $25ish buck reselling fee or whatever it is, you can have my copy of Complete Orchestral Collection - Best Service. I'm kinda broke right now or I'd just do it myself.

https://www.bestservice.com/complete_orc...ction.html

[Mattias Westlund]

(07-21-2019, 10:58 PM)Nayrb Wrote: Mine is a Best Service "Pro Samples" set from 2002 (so says the case). The proper name is, "Vol. 11, Classic Orchestra: from Advanced Orchestra." I also have their Quantum Leap Orchestral Brass, which was a littler more useful at the time (sounds like you might have had the same one; at least on Wesnoth?). The AO one just has a lot of percussion, a harp, pretty light selection of violins and winds, and a lot of those little phrases and riffs. It would have been better had they had fewer of the latter and used the disc space for more useful samples. You really don't get much more than maybe a playable violin section, flute, and bassoon, all sus only. I recall it being most useful for the percussion and the harp.

Not sure what you have, but I think this particular disc is the only one that was available through Pro Samples, based on what the packaging advertises. I remember getting it on sale because they were being discontinued. Both of the discs I have came with Audio, AIFF, Akai, EXS24, Halion, and open WAV sets. At the time I remember feeling stupid because I thought each was two discs of content. Actually it was just two discs of the same stuff in different formats.

Mine predates the Best Service thing by years. I got the three CD's I have from a closing down sale at a local music store in 2007 or so, and they're in AKAI format. And yes, I did use a lot of those samples on the Wesnoth tracks. As for QL brass, I believe that's a precursor to the East West orchestra libraries of today and not related to the Peter Siedlaczec stuff at all (though I could be wrong).

[Mattias Westlund]

(07-21-2019, 11:11 PM)bigcat1969 Wrote: Any of you fellows want to come up with the $25ish buck reselling fee or whatever it is, you can have my copy of Complete Orchestral Collection - Best Service. I'm kinda broke right now or I'd just do it myself.

As I already have the useful stuff (or so it seems) I'm not gonna bite, but to anyone reading this: Advanced Orchestra is a classic orchestral sample library and it can still be useful for layering and the odd articulation here and there (I love the runs!). So I would take the man up on his offer if I were you.

[Nayrb]

(07-21-2019, 11:15 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: Mine predates the Best Service thing by years. I got the three CD's I have from a closing down sale at a local music store in 2007 or so, and they're in AKAI format. And yes, I did use a lot of those samples on the Wesnoth tracks. As for QL brass, I believe that's a precursor to the East West orchestra libraries of today and not related to the Peter Siedlaczec stuff at all (though I could be wrong).

Very cool! Of course I like the "New Mattias" sound best, but the Wesnoth tracks are quite enjoyable and the samples have a certain charm to them. Interesting to know a bit about where they came from. I could swear that the horns and the bones are the same as the Quantum Leap Brass I have, but I could be wrong. They are unrelated to AO, and are in fact EW.

[Terry93D]

(07-21-2019, 09:30 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote:

(07-20-2019, 04:07 PM)Terry93D Wrote: the core, musical assessment is two tests: the Haydn test, which is the rendering of the first and last movements of Haydn's Symphony Nr. 80, as a test of how it performs in a realistic, classical situation (realism of balance and performance); and an "epic test," utilizing an original composition (yet to be written).

First off: I think this project is a wonderful idea, and I wish you the best of luck with it. If I can help in any way, let me know. I have a problem with the above statement though, and I'm pointing this out as a friendly heads-up before you get too far. So I'm not saying "boo, you're wrong!" Just a word of caution.

The thing is, rendering the same midi with different samples is an excercise in futility that will tell you absolutely NOTHING about the actual capabilities of the libraries in question. It will show their differences, yes, but it will also give people the wrong idea. "Wow, that sounded like crap. I'm not buying that one!". Basically this method ignores the fact that ALL orchestral libraries are different, with different strengths and weaknesses, a different sound, not to mention different functions and features. No two libraries have the exact same levels, or note attacks, or velocity layer mapping, or modwheel XF mapping, or keyswitches, and... well, you get the idea. Hell, some of them don't even come with all the instruments! The only way to truthfully showcase what a library can or can't do is to recreate the composition (Haydn in this case) from scratch with it, doing your darndest to work around its potential limitations. Maybe that's the way you were planning on doing it, but judging from the amount of libraries on your list I doubt it. That would take... years, probably.

So, bottom line: just piping the same midi through different libs is an unfair and misleading way of comparing orchestral libraries. There's simply soooo much more to a convincing and pleasant-sounding virtual orchestration.

Alternate approach? I don't know honestly. Personally I would much prefer just hearing short isolated snippets of some instruments included. A few notes on the violins, trumpets, percussion, and so on.

You're absolutely right that every orchestral library is completely different and that putting the same MIDI through each library would be totally unfair and dishonest. I have no plans to do so for all the reasons you mentioned. : As you say, however, it would be very time-consuming to completely recreate from scratch the movements - even if, being Haydn symphonies, they are not the twenty-minute-plus epics of later composers. (The last movement is less then five minutes!) I would hope not years, though I suppose that'll depend on how good I am by the time of actually managing this...

The best scenario I can think of right now - and right now I'm rather tired, we lost power yesterday and I got a very poor night's sleep as a result (we got it back earlier today, but even so) - is to create a MIDI lacking any articulation or dynamic data, and then feed that into each library and modify from there to best fit the library's sound, though I'll fully admit that this may be more trouble then it's worth.