+- Scoring Central (http://scoringcentral.mattiaswestlund.net)
+-- Forum: Technology (http://scoringcentral.mattiaswestlund.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Samples & Sample libraries (http://scoringcentral.mattiaswestlund.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Goofing around with tutti samples (/showthread.php?tid=705)
Goofing around with tutti samples - Samulis - 09-24-2019
Last night I was goofing around with some piano MIDI files from Bernd Kruger's website and some pianos from VCSL when I decided trying to make a 'cheap & dirty' orchestrated version of a Haydn piece using layered spiccato and staccato samples from VSCO 2 CE, VCSL, and some Alpha instruments (clarinets, oboes, bassoon, contrabass ensemble). To my surprise, it actually came out reasonably well for the shockingly little amount of effort put in-
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5ljsu6n8ru7oz7/Haydn_33-1.mp3?dl=0
I then upped the ensemble by adding some more brass and a harp from VSCO 2 CE to flesh out a Romantic-period orchestra and ran some Brahms and Mussorgsky through it-
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iifq63p235p9ujv/Brahms_Op1.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gjqpz5v7cdime0g/Mussorg_Excerpt.mp3?dl=0
While the tracks were playing, I would occasionally mute parts (e.g. the trumpets) to keep them only coming in at appropriate times. Overall the system could be implemented much better by having more carefully limited instrument ranges, and the voices active tied to modwheel, in the same way some old player pianos had their volume manually controlled by a lever that the operator would move following instructions written on the roll (if I recall, Mattias did something like that a few years ago with VSCO 2 CE samples?). Also, the levels were accidentally too hot, so things clipped at times.
One of the big takeaways for me is how realistic staccato samples can sound, even from a very limited sample set. Obviously there is a lot of musicality lacking from having no sustains, but the final result is at times shockingly reasonable sounding (e.g. 9:00-10:00 in the Brahms), and at others, beautiful in that 'cheesy 90's orchestral mock-up' way. Round robins definitely make a huge difference here, even though limited to 2-4 on most patches!
RE: Goofing around with tutti samples - The Darris - 09-25-2019
I would really appreciate it if someone with a lot of money would just fund a large scale orchestral sampling project for you. Unlimited budget and resources. I honestly think your approach to sampling, coupled with the right gear and players, would rival most "industry standards" on the market. You simply view sampling through a different lens than any other developer out there and for that, I appreciate it.
RE: Goofing around with tutti samples - Samulis - 09-25-2019
(09-25-2019, 05:45 AM)The Darris Wrote: I would really appreciate it if someone with a lot of money would just fund a large scale orchestral sampling project for you. Unlimited budget and resources. I honestly think your approach to sampling, coupled with the right gear and players, would rival most "industry standards" on the market. You simply view sampling through a different lens than any other developer out there and for that, I appreciate it.
Thanks for the kind words, Chris!
On one hand, while that sounds like a great idea, part of what makes the process fun is trying to keep the budget low. Recently I've been working on some projects that have been a bit more extreme in terms of scope and detail level, and the other day I was reminded by a friend that my mic locker has quietly grown in size to rival those of many minor studios, but there was something sublimely enjoyable to hauling a pair of NT1-A's into a classroom somewhere and sit down with a new performer I've never worked with for two hours to record some samples. The feeling of building the first patch for a new instrument is something that's so inexplicably enjoyable, like a luthier stringing up their instrument and playing the first chord, that if I ever were to reach the level of automation and streamlining necessary to make a flagship orchestral library, I don't know how much I'd enjoy it anymore.
On the other hand, I was just looking at what's out there from companies like OT, AI, Spitfire and so on, and there's really so little room left for orchestral libraries to go. It's like, what more can you do, record with 21 mic positions instead of 20? Record violins played with rosin-covered drumsticks? Yes, I can make something different, but at some point the market is going to be so saturated that there isn't really any room for new products to economically make sense. Already some recent products I've seen are getting pretty goofy just to try to find room. There's even a remarkable push going on in the low-end and even now the freeware market (although most seem to have no interest in open-source, unfortunately).
Economically I'm in a deeply disadvantageous position compared to larger companies, who either have deep industry connections or are willing to outsource their playing to Eastern Europe where musicians are significantly more affordable than here. I don't necessarily have a problem with outsourcing, but I never want to have a session where I'm not sitting directly in front of the musician (Jordi Francis/Etherealwinds and I even had a 8-hour skype call while recording Etherealwinds Harp II). If I had tried to make VSCO 2 with post-collegiate performers in a proper studio but at an identical scope, it would have easily cost 4-5x as much for maybe a 25% improvement in quality. For a company like Spitfire, they can eat a cost like that- not only do they have another product coming out a few weeks after to cover up any losses, they are also shockingly good at economizing, automating, and expediting their workflow. For me, one big flop and I'm out of the game.
So, at the moment I'm more interested in exploring stuff along the 'Artist Series' line, working with individual performers one-on-one to create instruments that reflect their creative direction. These kinds of projects are logistically simple, require little expense for both the performer and myself, and have a literally bulletproof differentiating factor. I think that's something companies like Waves figured out years ago when they started doing branded effects.
RE: Goofing around with tutti samples - The Darris - 09-25-2019
(09-25-2019, 06:51 AM)Samulis Wrote: On one hand, while that sounds like a great idea, part of what makes the process fun is trying to keep the budget low....I admire your modesty and practicality in your response. As someone who uses a lot of what you've described as "saturation" in our industry, I'm telling you that something new that uses the approach you have to sampling would be welcomed. As for your economical situation, I feel ya. That's why I wish someone with deep pockets would fund your work. I just imagining what you'd accomplish with unlimited financial support whilst not compromising your artistic integrity to sampling. Spoilers? I think it would be amazing.
On the other hand, I was just looking at what's out there from companies like OT, AI, Spitfire and so on, and there's really so little room left for orchestral libraries to go. It's like, what more can you do, record with 21 mic positions instead of 20? Record violins played with rosin-covered drumsticks? Yes, I can make something different, but at some point the market is going to be so saturated that there isn't really any room for new products to economically make sense. Already some recent products I've seen are getting pretty goofy just to try to find room. There's even a remarkable push going on in the low-end and even now the freeware market (although most seem to have no interest in open-source, unfortunately).
Economically I'm in a deeply disadvantageous position compared to larger companies, who either have deep industry connections or are willing to outsource their playing to Eastern Europe where musicians are significantly more affordable than here. I don't necessarily have a problem with outsourcing, but I never want to have a session where I'm not sitting directly in front of the musician (Jordi Francis/Etherealwinds and I even had a 8-hour skype call while recording Etherealwinds Harp II). If I had tried to make VSCO 2 with post-collegiate performers in a proper studio but at an identical scope, it would have easily cost 4-5x as much for maybe a 25% improvement in quality. For a company like Spitfire, they can eat a cost like that- not only do they have another product coming out a few weeks after to cover up any losses, they are also shockingly good at economizing, automating, and expediting their workflow. For me, one big flop and I'm out of the game.
So, at the moment I'm more interested in exploring stuff along the 'Artist Series' line, working with individual performers one-on-one to create instruments that reflect their creative direction. These kinds of projects are logistically simple, require little expense for both the performer and myself, and have a literally bulletproof differentiating factor. I think that's something companies like Waves figured out years ago when they started doing branded effects.
Cheers,
Chris