The time has come

[Mattias Westlund]

Here's an updated and much evolved version of the track posted earlier in this thread.



Right now I'm not sure how I feel about this. I mean, it kind of sounds like I want it to but there's various things that I'm not too sure about, especially the woodwinds. It feels like they don't sit well with the rest but whether it's a question of Z-positioning or simply levels I do not know. I'm not seeing the wood for the trees right now, so I can't make any objective desicions. If there's anything that strikes you as odd or sounds bad, please let me know (keeping in mind of course that this isn't supposed to be a truly realistic orchestral sound).

[Mattias Westlund]

Thanks jmcmillan! Yes that is indeed helpful as it pinpoints a few things I've been wondering about myself.

(07-17-2017, 04:22 PM)jmcmillan Wrote: At 1:54 I love the cello to cor Anglais/oboe to clarinet to flute phrase handoff. Sounds really good.

That is actually cello -> cor anglais -> bass clarinet -> oboe. No flute.

(07-17-2017, 04:22 PM)jmcmillan Wrote: About the wood winds,to my ears it seems like levels are a touch too high. 
:32 flute run seems too loud
1:01 clarinet seems too loud
1:54 the wood winds passing the phrase all seem too loud. 

Yup, the flute/piccolo run is definitely too loud. Or, maybe just the piccolo. When I mute the piccolo the flutes sit much better within the overall mix. Difficult thing here is that when I just lower the piccolo track the melodic parts get buried. So, it might be that I need to do some balancing of the "fancy" piccolo articulation levels with the normal sustain/staccato ones.

The woodwinds are generally all over the place like this, I think. Thanks for pointing it out, this might be the main problem I'm hearing. I've been trying not to fall into the same trap as with my old orchestral template -- where the winds were too weak instead -- and when you're working on several different tracks within the same template you can't just suddenly go "hey, I need to raise the overall level of [x] here" because that will break the previous tracks, making the instrument in question too loud.

I want to get it right this time, within reason. Brass playing at full tilt will always drown out almost everything else but the percussion, but I want to make sure I have some reasonable headroom for the winds.

The woodwind samples being from like half a dozen different libs isn't helping either, I suppose

[Viktor]

I think it sounds pretty good. The clarinete seemed a bit loud to me, not in a ridicilous amount, just a bit. And the harp sounds a bit upfront, while it doesn't sound bad, just not "realistic" but judging from what you wrote you're not really aiming for that. I really like the way the deep stabs at 0:35 and following sound. Generelly I really adore the brass sounds on this one.
What are the tools you use for mixing here? Eq and proximity? And what Reverb did you use? That also sounds pretty good. I think it sounds relativly realistic actualy, a bit like sitting in the orchestra more then sitting in the audience.

[Samulis]

Maybe thin out the picc- try a highpass? I think the presence issue is that it has too much "body".

Overall it's pretty good, but I think the cellos/tbns combo or whatever that is in the beginning is a bit too muddy and centered (trombones/cellos typically end up fairly far right), especially compared to the violas/violins to the left. I tend to find lower instruments should get less reverb than one thinks and higher should get more for a nice mix.

Was that the Proteus cor anglais/oboe I heard at the end? I'm trying to master my auditory detection of sample libraries, but not making that much headway with all these libraries out there...

[Mattias Westlund]

New version is up with some added percussion plus various fixes here and there. Same link as above, you might need to clear your cache if Soundcloud is still playing the old version.

(07-17-2017, 06:07 PM)Viktor Wrote: I think it sounds pretty good. The clarinete seemed a bit loud to me, not in a ridicilous amount, just a bit. And the harp sounds a bit upfront, while it doesn't sound bad, just not "realistic" but judging from what you wrote you're not really aiming for that.

Yes, you're right. I've lowered the clarinet volume, maybe even more is needed. The harps (yes there are actually two, one left and one right) were indeed too upfront, I've tried sending them to the "Mid" reverb buss for this version, though I can't say I'm noticing much difference.

(07-17-2017, 06:07 PM)Viktor Wrote: What are the tools you use for mixing here? Eq and proximity? And what Reverb did you use? That also sounds pretty good. I think it sounds relativly realistic actualy, a bit like sitting in the orchestra more then sitting in the audience.

Well, not many tools at all aside from simply mixer/reverb levels and basic low shelf EQ on various things. I would like to avoid adding any psychoacoustic Z-depth plugins if at all possible, as they generally introduce latency. The reverb is ValhallaRoom, using the same front/mid/back busses that I used on my old template.

(07-18-2017, 01:45 AM)Samulis Wrote: Maybe thin out the picc- try a highpass? I think the presence issue is that it has too much "body".

Thanks! Yes, that (along with balancing the levels of different piccolo articulations) seemed to do the trick, or so I think.

(07-18-2017, 01:45 AM)Samulis Wrote: Overall it's pretty good, but I think the cellos/tbns combo or whatever that is in the beginning is a bit too muddy and centered (trombones/cellos typically end up fairly far right), especially compared to the violas/violins to the left. I tend to find lower instruments should get less reverb than one thinks and higher should get more for a nice mix.

Hmm, too centered? The cellos were at 40% right and the 'bones at 45%. I've panned them a bit further right for this new version.

(07-18-2017, 01:45 AM)Samulis Wrote: Was that the Proteus cor anglais/oboe I heard at the end? I'm trying to master my auditory detection of sample libraries, but not making that much headway with all these libraries out there...

Indeed it was! Though of course not the Proteus version of the samples, it's from DSF, but it's the same recording yes

[Viktor]

(07-18-2017, 11:01 AM)Mattias Westlund Wrote:

(07-17-2017, 06:07 PM)Viktor Wrote: What are the tools you use for mixing here? Eq and proximity? And what Reverb did you use? That also sounds pretty good. I think it sounds relativly realistic actualy, a bit like sitting in the orchestra more then sitting in the audience.

Well, not many tools at all aside from simply mixer/reverb levels and basic low shelf EQ on various things. I would like to avoid adding any psychoacoustic Z-depth plugins if at all possible, as they generally introduce latency. The reverb is ValhallaRoom, using the same front/mid/back busses that I used on my old template.

What the hell? Thats quite impressive, I always use tons of saturation on brass, lots of compressors and cut a ton of low mids, but you're template sounds pretty organized without any of that, pretty cool. Makes me think, if i should spend more time with panning, fading and adjusting reverb.

---

Are your harps just doubeling each other or do they seperate the parts?

[Mattias Westlund]

Yeah, I know a lot of people use tons of compressors, saturators, exciters and whatnot on orchestral mixes. Personally I've never felt a real need for it TBH... I mean sure, surgical EQ cuts might sometimes be necessary, or something like Proximity to move stuff back/forward, but that's about it. I'm not saying I wouldn't ever use something like that, I certainly would consider it if the need for it arises, but at this point I want everything sounding as good as possible with just the basics. Relying on e.g. a compressor at an early stage might come back and bite you in the ass later on, when you find that you can't play the instruments as soft or as loud as you want.

As for the harps, they're playing the same part in this particular piece but I definitely intend to use them for separate parts in other tracks. Having one harp off to the side has always struck me as sounding kind of lopsided, so I decided to stick one on the right as well.

[Michael Willis]

(07-18-2017, 01:19 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: Having one harp off to the side has always struck me as sounding kind of lopsided, so I decided to stick one on the right as well.

Have you placed a piano in this template yet (or have any plans to)? I don't think I heard any piano part.

Traditional seating arrangements with a piano usually have it way over to the left, but I found that I liked it better in the center while putting together my own template. Your "lopsided" comment is similar to how I felt.

[Mattias Westlund]

Yes, I'm planning on having a piano, though I won't add one until I feel I need it. This template is getting pretty big already.

And yeah, I know about piano traditionally being placed somewhere to the left, in the back. Never understood that either, same as with the harp. With other instruments I can usually see the sense in the traditional seating -- things are separated so that they don't clash, and there's always something on the opposite side balancing the instruments in question up -- but with harp and piano, not so much.

[Samulis]

If you want another option, some older orchestras instead put the harp hard right in front of the back rows of the cellos but before the basses. Sits clear in the mix but rather right.

You may find the piano seated more towards the center for concertos or chamber groups, which I find better. Overly wet piano is... eeuugghh....