Simple question...

[Mattias Westlund]

I think it's great that there's useable stuff available for Kontakt Player, but it's not an option for me. I have a strong dislike for "black box" sample player libs (I have EWQLSO Silver but hardly ever use it for this very reason). Since I'm using so much older stuff I'm accustomed to being able to remap or edit things to my heart's content, so having some developer deciding how my sampler patches should work without me having any control over it isn't my idea of money well spent. Especially not considering the prices we're talking about.

Orchestral Brass Classic sounds interesting though... but I'm guessing this is a monolithic/encrypted lib i.e. you can't access the wave files and remap them in something other than Kontakt?

[Nayrb]

(11-28-2016, 08:32 AM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: I think it's great that there's useable stuff available for Kontakt Player, but it's not an option for me. I have a strong dislike for "black box" sample player libs (I have EWQLSO Silver but hardly ever use it for this very reason). Since I'm using so much older stuff I'm accustomed to being able to remap or edit things to my heart's content, so having some developer deciding how my sampler patches should work without me having any control over it isn't my idea of money well spent. Especially not considering the prices we're talking about.

Orchestral Brass Classic sounds interesting though... but I'm guessing this is a monolithic/encrypted lib i.e. you can't access the wave files and remap them in something other than Kontakt?

I'll have to look into that when I have a moment later today and let you know. I think you can get to the samples in WAV format easily via the Samples folder but I'm not sure of how easily they could be manipulated in anything other than Kontakt or if the results would be satisfying enough to justify the cost of the full package.

[Mattias Westlund]

I don't have the budget for any expensive purchases right now, but I did pick up Sonivox Orchestral Companion Brass and Winds for a measly $25 a piece. Also a bit dated, but as I already have a couple other Sonivox libs they might come in handy. Sounds pretty nice most of it, though the player frontend is very basic.

Oddly enough, the woodwind wave samples appear to be encrypted, while the brass ones are not. So I could technically map at least the brass in something else if I desire.

[Nayrb]

(11-28-2016, 06:49 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: I don't have the budget for any expensive purchases right now, but I did pick up Sonivox Orchestral Companion Brass and Winds for a measly $25 a piece. Also a bit dated, but as I already have a couple other Sonivox libs they might come in handy. Sounds pretty nice most of it, though the player frontend is very basic.

Oddly enough, the woodwind wave samples appear to be encrypted, while the brass ones are not. So I could technically map at least the brass in something else if I desire.

That's a steal! Do let us know how these work out. I had a bad experience when I demoed the winds in this line about a year ago. I was very excited and thought I had found a great solution to what was lacking in my woodwinds, but the demo was very buggy and customer support was no help at all. That coupled with the fact that an iLok account was secretly needed just to install the demo caused me to back away entirely. Still, I could be persuaded to reconsider...

[Mattias Westlund]

(11-29-2016, 12:45 AM)Nayrb Wrote: That's a steal! Do let us know how these work out.

Welll... YMMV of course, but I think the samples themselves sound great. But I also have a weak spot for the warm, organic sound of the Sonivox samples. Obviously you can hear that this is stuff from a previous generation of orchestral sampling. That is not a problem for me personally, but I know it might be for others. There's plenty of articulations for all instruments and all in all 12GB of content between these two libs.

Upon closer inspection though, it comes as no surprise that they're offering these things at 75% off. They're like the embodiment of everything I dislike about black box libraries like I mentioned earlier. To name a few things:

- The sample player is monotimbral, meaning you will need to use one instance for each instrument/section. It's fairly CPU frugal, but still -- clutter.

- There are errors in the mappings here and there (one trumpet section RR plays two notes instead of one, there are pops in the releases of several samples) and there is absolutely nothing I can do about this.

- You can't disable the release tails. I don't know about anyone else, but I find mixing different libs difficult even without the tails from two dozen recording spaces making a mess of things.

- The velocity curve of the sample player can't be adjusted.

- The keyswitches are fixed at the same position (the -1 octave) for ALL instruments. Which means I will have to use a separate midi controller for switching articulations when playing high register stuff like piccolo etc.

So I dunno. For $50 I can't complain, I'm sure I will find a use for some of this. But I kinda feel sorry for the people who's paid full price for these libs.

[Nayrb]

(11-29-2016, 08:25 AM)Mattias Westlund Wrote:

(11-29-2016, 12:45 AM)Nayrb Wrote: That's a steal! Do let us know how these work out.

I kinda feel sorry for the people who's paid full price for these libs.

Alas... That echoes my experience and conclusion with the winds demo. But as you say, you'll likely get some use out of them anyway and perhaps you can remap the brass and bypass some of these issues.

[Mattias Westlund]

(11-29-2016, 12:34 PM)Nayrb Wrote: Alas... That echoes my experience and conclusion with the winds demo. But as you say, you'll likely get some use out of them anyway and perhaps you can remap the brass and bypass some of these issues.

Yeah, luckily it was the brass that had unencrypted wav's, I didn't notice any glaring errors in the woodwinds. I need to sit down and sort through the brass files when I have the time and whip up some TX16Wx patches.

It sucks having to go to such lengths making something work though... with just a little more thought put into the software, and some actual quailty control during the mapping stage, these could have been really great virtual instruments.

[Nayrb]

(11-29-2016, 07:30 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote:

(11-29-2016, 12:34 PM)Nayrb Wrote: Alas... That echoes my experience and conclusion with the winds demo. But as you say, you'll likely get some use out of them anyway and perhaps you can remap the brass and bypass some of these issues.

Yeah, luckily it was the brass that had unencrypted wav's, I didn't notice any glaring errors in the woodwinds. I need to sit down and sort through the brass files when I have the time and whip up some TX16Wx patches.

It sucks having to go to such lengths making something work though... with just a little more thought put into the software, and some actual quailty control during the mapping stage, these could have been really great virtual instruments.

Indeed! I suppose there is hope yet, via updates and whatnot. They really do have the potential to be very useful and popular with all that they offer, even at the full price.

[Samulis]

This SONiVOX marketing stuff had me in stitches...


When you need to add real brass to your project for that "just so" feel, nothing less than the real thing will do. Artificial sounds and less-than-authentic details will sabotage even the best-intentioned efforts. It's like a history buff watching a movie about World War I and seeing a 1960's-era clock on the fireplace mantel in the background. The credibility is shot and the production is ruined.

You only get one chance. Don't blow it.
...

In case you're interested (and we know you are, because that's the care and attention you pay to your music), here are the technical details:

*proceeds to list non-technical details about the performers, space, etc.*


Very remarkable with "dual velocity patches" (a fancy way of saying "two dynamic layers", i.e. the standard in the mid 90's on hardware units like the EMU ESI-32).

For fun, here's the marketing drivel with all the superlatives, hyperbole, etc. taken out and [[snarky comments]] and [corrections] put in instead:

Quote:When you need to add real brass to your project for that "just so" feel, nothing less than [[double negative]] the real thing will do [[so basically, you are telling people to record real brass rather than use your product?]]. Artificial sounds and less-than-authentic details will sabotage even the best-intentioned efforts [can sound pretty good if you know how to use MIDI in the slightest, but we don't figure you do]. It's like a history buff watching a movie about World War I and seeing a 1960's-era clock on the fireplace mantel in the background [[who the heck wrote this!? Please still don't be pissed off about that scene in Pirates of the Caribbean where the guy was wearing a t-shirt in the background...]]. The credibility is shot and the production is ruined. [[well that's highly debatable... what if it's a time travel film?]]

You only get one chance. Don't blow it. [[OK, coach! In real life, see, the client would go, "um, that sounds like Ocarina of Time, can you make it sound EPICER?"]]

That's the seriousness [bollocks] with which we took the creation of Orchestral Companion Brass.

The SONiVOX design team has produced over [>=] 80 outstanding brass programs [[I'm sorry, each "brass" is a set of instructions for a computer to process? That's the definition of a 'Program', m8...]], each one meticulously crafted [designed] to deliver an accurate and convincing an experience as possible [sound]. That's what you demand, so that’s what we did. [[actually, I demand extremely shitty noise-filled brass libraries made from recordings from cassette tapes]]

There is a comprehensive collection of full orchestral brass ensembles, and also a full array of smaller brass sub-groups  [[WHAT THE HECK IS A SUB-GROUP!? IS THAT LIKE A WOLFPACK!?]]. In addition, we provide you with a complete selection of solo instruments. All the major instruments are here, including solo trumpets, trombones, bass trombones, French horns  [[seriously, they're not French]], and tuba. Double and flutter tonguing, sustained and staccato notes, plus instrument mutes, swells, sforzando, and marcato voicing [articulations] provide you with the depth of content you need for convincing brass parts and tracks. [[If someone could explain the difference between a "brass part" and a "brass track" (as opposed to a 'brass tack'?), that would be greatly appreciated...]]

However, what really sets the [differentiates] SONiVOX Orchestral Companion Brass apart from other seemingly similar products is this:

We spared no effort or expense in seeking [sought] out the best musicians playing the best-sounding instruments, and we took the necessary steps to record[ed] them correctly in the most lifelike manner possible. We paid attention to every detail—we crossed every 't' and dotted every 'i.'

All because we knew you wouldn't accept inauthentic [shitty] brass sounds in your production any more than you'd accept a 1960's clock in your 1914-era movie. [[aaand the award for greatest Adult Fiction goes to...]] [[also: Fragment; consider revising.]]

In case you're interested (and we know you are, because that's the care and attention you pay to your music)  , here are the technical details:

World-Class Musicians; Top-Tier instruments

We recorded the Orchestral Companion Brass in the legendary Futura Productions studios in Massachusetts. Members of the Boston Pops and/or Boston Ballet Orchestras played all performances, with the same premium instruments they use for their actual [[as opposed to their fake or imaginary performances?]] concert(s) galas and events  [[gala == event, moron]]. A combination of spot and ambient mic’ing capture(s) every instrumental nuance [sounds], while preserving the refined acoustics and intimacy of the performance space itself.

State-of-the-Art Sampling Sessions

Under the expert guidance of SONiVOX musical sound connoisseur [[producer/designer]] Jennifer Hruska, each sample session was faithfully recorded by Emmy award-winning engineers Antonio Oliart and RIAA award-winning engineer John Bono. The players were positioned using orchestrally-correct [orchestral] seating [['orchestrally-correct' is not a word]], and measures were even taken to [we] compensate(d) for the sound-absorption of any players [[who had better things to do in 1995]] absent on that particular day. In order to retain a realistic "organic" feel [not have it sound like shit], we used absolutely minimal post-recording electronic processing [[uh... what other kind of processing is there, biological? magnetic?]]. We used two B&K 4011 microphones to preserve the highly-desired front-of-hall sound (you know, the "good seats") [at the front], while superior-grade spot mics accurately captured each instrument's individual detail [sound]. Benchmark-caliber preamps fed Troisi Octal A/D convert(e)rs to complete an uncorrupted signal chain. [[even the cheapest converters and preamps in 2001 were 'uncorrupted' unless they were broken]]

We expended more effort and care on this system than most crazed get-a-life audiophiles do on their own systems, but that’s how important it was to us...because that's how important it is to you. [[once again, putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head. Thank you, I was totally unable to figure out what I wanted by myself!]]

Playable Programs [[you'd better damn hope I can play them or I'm getting a refund!!!]]

Each patch and preset is easily playable by virtually every level of performer [[what about someone who can't play piano or doesn't own a computer, WHAT THEN!?]]. All instruments are presented in multi [have two] velocity layers, with natural swells available via the modulation wheel. MIDI key switching provides on-the-fly articulation for select patches. The internal [[dear God, I was worried you were going to talk about the external sound engine!!]] sound engine provides additional modulation (LFO) sources, dynamic envelope control, and studio-grade reverb/effects [[so basically what my $20 1995 General MIDI DS-330 can do]] to allow creative customization of the onboard sounds. [[onboard... wait, I thought this was software! I am so very confused...]]

Plug-In Proficiency [Formats] [[As opposed to Plug-In In-proficiency... I can see why they chose Proficiency!]]

In addition, Orchestral Companion Brass runs as a fully compatible plug-in with any VST (32 or 64 bit), AU (64 bit) , and AAX (32 or 64 bit) for ProTools 10.3 or higher Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) software.

Features

State-of-the-art captures of world-class brass instruments
24-bit [[because we should make things unnecessarily larger than they should be, particularly with brass!]], dual velocity [2vl] patches provide expressive textures
Over 5 GB of data content [[SHIT, I thought this was Analog content!! Crap, time to return the tape mellotron...]]
80+ patches covering brass ensembles, sectionals & solo instruments
Full Brass Ensembles; Brass Sections [[you LITERALLY just said that]]
Solo Trumpet, Trombone, Bass Trombone, French Horn, and Tuba
Diverse articulations, dynamics, and muted instruments
16 patches with full articulation switching using MIDI keys [[i.e. "16 keyswitchable patches"]]
Internal FX, LFOs, and envelopes for unlimited creative freedom
32 & 64-bit; VST, AU, RTAS, and AAX

Here it is all cleaned up!

Quote:When you need to add brass to your project, the real thing will do. Artificial sounds can sound pretty good if you know how to use MIDI in the slightest, but we don't figure you do.

That's the bollocks with which we took the creation of Orchestral Companion Brass.

The SONiVOX design team has produced >= 80 brass programs, each one designed to deliver an accurate sound.

There is a collection of orchestral brass ensembles, and also smaller brass groups. In addition, we provide you with solo instruments. All the major instruments are here, including solo trumpets, trombones, bass trombones, horns, and tuba. Double and flutter tonguing, sustained and staccato notes, mutes, swells, sforzando, and marcato articulations provide you with content for brass parts.

What differentiates SONiVOX Orchestral Companion Brass from other similar products is that we sought out musicians playing instruments, and we recorded them correctly. We paid attention.

All because we knew you wouldn't accept shitty brass sounds in your productions.

Here are the technical details:

Musicians; instruments
We recorded the Orchestral Companion Brass in Futura Productions studios in Massachusetts. Members of the Boston Pops and/or Boston Ballet Orchestras played all performances, with the same instruments they use for their concerts. A combination of spot and ambient mic’ing captures sounds, while preserving the acoustics of the performance space

State-of-the-Art Sampling Sessions
Under the guidance of SONiVOX producer/designer Jennifer Hruska, each sample session was recorded by Antonio Oliart and John Bono. The players were positioned using orchestral seating, and we compensated for the sound-absorption of any players absent. In order to not have it sound like shit, we used minimal post-recording. We used two microphones at the front, while spot mics captured each instrument's sound. Preamps fed A/D converters to complete a signal chain.

We expended effort on this system.

Programs
Each patch and preset is playable. All instruments have two velocity layers, with swells via the modulation wheel. MIDI key switching provides articulation for select patches. The sound engine provides modulation (LFO) sources, dynamic envelope control, and reverb/effects to allow customization of the sounds.

Plug-In Formats
In addition, Orchestral Companion Brass runs as a plug-in VST (32 or 64 bit), AU (64 bit) , and AAX (32 or 64 bit) for ProTools 10.3 or higher Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) software.

Features
captures of brass instruments
24-bit 2vl patches
5 GB of content
80+ patches covering brass ensembles, sectionals & solo instruments
Solo Trumpet, Trombone, Bass Trombone, Horn, and Tuba
articulations, dynamics, and muted instruments
16 keyswitchable patches
Internal FX, LFOs, and envelopes
32 & 64-bit; VST, AU, RTAS, and AAX

My version is 418 words/2,760 characters, while the original version is 603 words/4,684 characters. That's an approximately 40% reduction in the amount of text and time spent reading by just cutting out the fluff and bollocks. I could still remove more, such as the bit about how the Boston Pops players play the same instruments they normally play (totally irrelevant information intended to impress the reader: it's common sense they would play the same instruments...).

I think the thing that bothers me more than prices is the insane amount of drivel. The Garritan site is like watching a train wreck of marketing bollocks and reality in real time 24/7.

Quote:Garritan is the world’s leading provider of quality virtual software instruments. We are committed to creating new standards that are consistently in the forefront of music technology, yet remain focused on the human elements of music and real performance... ... Garritan sounds are widely used in television, film, game audio, and on the world’s greatest concert stages.

World's leading provider is totally EastWest without a doubt, probably followed by Vienna or Native Instruments or maybe now even Spitfire (that is, if we ignore free stuff), so that's just an outright lie. Even Gary Garritan apparently once remarked GPO was not designed as a quality professional instrument set but rather a sketching tool for use in notation software exclusively.

Garritan probably hasn't done anything regarding "new standards" or "forefront of music technology"-ish since the late 90's. SFZ/ARIA was a collaboration admittedly, but definitely isn't at the forefront of anything (remarkably SF2 is still holding on tooth-and-nail and most people seem to vastly prefer VSTi/AU such as Maize-based instruments despite their own obvious shortcomings). I don't see them doing combined sample-synthesis fusions, acoustic modelling, granular resynthesis, advanced DFD, true legato, advances in crossfading, advances in articulation switching, or anything else that hallmarks the current line of 'new standards' in the industry.

I don't think they are widely used in anything aside from Finale mock-ups and some people who don't know or can't afford better. XD

[Mattias Westlund]

So... I guess you were bored last night Samulis?

But yeah, all that marketing hyperbole gets ridiculous very quickly. Garritan claiming to be the world leader in virtual instruments is like Nokia claiming to be the world leader in cell phones. I.e. it might have been true a decade ago but a lot of things have changed since then. A lot of those old sample developers mainly just live on thanks to brand name recognition and former glories these days. IIRC Garritan did have some advanced pro libs way back... whatever happened to those? Has anyone here ever used them?