Simple question...

[Mattias Westlund]

... is there ANYTHING around these days that isn't a) Kontakt-only, and/or b) costs an arm and a leg?

I was looking at various Black Friday deals and just kept shaking my head. "Now at 75% off... SUPER MEGA EPIC HOLLYWOOD STRINGS/BRASS/WINDS/ETC... only $399!" Yeah, that sounds like a steal, I better get two of 'em while I'm at it...

What the hell is wrong with the orchestral sample library market? It's like there's only two levels of end users: hobbyists and big time pro composers. Once you grow out of GPO or whatever, you need to start selling body parts to Chinese organ smugglers in order to finance your musical career. I mean come on, surely there must be some middle ground there? And surely there must be a lot of money to be made in that intermediate segment of users?

As for Kontakt... just sell me the bloody wave files. I'd be happy to map them myself, in whatever sampler I prefer, no matter how long it takes.

Sheeesh.

[Samulis]

^^^ This was the reason I started making VSCO 2.

The only problem is there isn't a suitable alternative to Kontakt: HISE (the only other sampler out there that can stand up to Kontakt) is buggy and still in BETA and most people haven't even heard of it yet, SFZ has virtually no detailed documentation or tutorials and requires an enormous amount of hand-coding, and everything else of that caliber is proprietary.

SFZ theoretically can compete with Kontakt in power, aside from maybe some DFD/efficiency issues and I haven't the slightest idea of what ARIA licensing costs (but probably nowhere as expensive as Kontakt Player). Plus, I just don't know enough about the format to do the advanced things required in a semi-professional library- decent legato if not "true" legato, dynamic crossfading, advanced KS operations, etc. just that I know it is possible...

The only person who really knows how HISE works right now is its developer. I know a few people are starting to get the hang of it, but I don't think it would be easy or cost efficient to make HISE port at this time.

This does leave Kontakt Player libraries, but the licensing process understandably has costs associated with it, so creating an affordable library with KP is not as desirable. This isn't official, but I have been considering getting VSCO 2 Pro converted so that the cost to a beginner is only the $229 and not $429 (which would make EWQL SO Gold cheaper).

There's one more thing: in an industry with little product differentiation ("do you want THOSE oboes or THESE oboes?"), the thing customers FIRST look for to determine value/quality, even subconsciously, is the MSRP. A product listed at $249 versus one listed at $499 but discounted half off is perceived as worth much less and will ironically be purchased less even though it is cheaper. VSCO 2 Pro is $229 and considered by many to be "underpriced"/"a bargain" (to quote the reviewers and posters directly). If I had perhaps priced it at $299 or 349 and offered it at $199 on sale, it might strangely sell much more than at $229 on sale at $149.

Similarly, if I didn't do the bandwidth-smart and hard-drive smart moves of converting to 16-bit and compressing to .ncw, and rather used raw 24-bit .wav, it would probably sell much more, but most of that is due to foolish misconceptions regarding audio formats and compression.

In this mindset, there is very much a steeple chase to capture the "professional" portion of the industry that demands the very best. The libraries with the largest numbers are the ones that often end up with the largest sales, even if quality or actual tone are not really much better, or the UI is hard to read or use, or the controls and functionality is limited to being a one-trick pony (the latter being extremely common nowadays- so many libraries are just 'trailer score machines' and sound dreadful for anything else.

Finally, we have the issue of image. Let's all face it, probably 80% of people in this industry have zero other desires or motivations than to be rich and famous and be perfect clones of x famous film scorer or game scorer (ughh...). When a library comes out and says "x famous composer endorsed this" or appears to be the sort of tool that such an individual would use, and markets itself as a tool for scoring professionals, then it will be perceived as such, and procuring it will be more for status than anything else; copies fly out the door. Comparatively, when a library comes out marketing itself honestly as a budget option for semi-professionals, it creeps out the door day by day, copy by copy. There is enormous ego in owning "luxury" libraries, much like those who buy luxury cars. You COULD buy a car that works perfectly and has excellent fuel economy, but why not buy a car also owned by a bunch of rich famous people? It is like that app on the appstore that was sold for $99 that contained nothing other than a picture of a diamond and indeed created this artificial value through status.

Thus the only way to create a valuable "intermediate" product is to either over-price it, get it endorsed by a famous person, or pack it so full of value that it manages to turn heads just through sheer quality/quantity.

In other words, when people see the bargain option, especially in an industry where "quality" is everything (particularly for the masses of beginner composers), they turn away and instead stretch to reach more expensive legacy professional options (e.g. EWQL SO), or if they have some money (or know someone who has some money), they might go for a current-generation professional option, straight from factory options.

[Nayrb]

Just judging from hanging around here at this forum I think we're coming up on a bit of a "revolution," in what ways, though, I can't really say. But as a Kontakt user I can say that Player Edition libraries have become increasingly attractive to me because I don't have to worry about upgrading from my full version of Kontakt 4 to 5 in order to make them work, I just pay for the library and go. It's wonderful to have a fully functioning version of Kontakt because it unlocks a great deal of potential insofar as I have access to older libraries and freeware scripts and such. It's great to be able to tweak things under the hood, too, which you can't do in the Player. But it's also nice when Player libraries are already programmed by professionals to make use of all the fancy Kontakt stuff and I don't have to lift a finger.

All that said, I do find myself locked out of a lot of opportunities because I don't have the latest full version of Kontakt. In the end I too find myself wishing for either more Kontakt Player Editions or some new option entirely.

[kaeru]

I will add my little bit to the convo too by saying it's been really hard over the past year waiting for the thanksgiving sale on kontakt, and STILL having to shell out 200$ for it. It contains no instruments of it's own, it's just a license to own libraries. Full msrp on kontakt is 400$ US !!

Good news is upgrading is cheap and doesn't happen often, but that initial plunge to own it is a real blow, and it's hard for the entry level musician to see the point of paying for it in the first place. Most don't even find out until they buy a patch that requires it. That's what happened to me, I bought a bunch of spitfire stuff from their laboratory range, all proceeds go to charity, and they only cost about 6~8$ per instrument (or sometimes group of instruments). After downloading and setting them all up I realize I've been caught in this mess that will force me to pay 400 usd to use my already purchased libraries. I was pretty angry at the whole thing, but I would've been oh so much moreso if I had paid more for those libraries only to be held hostage immediately by NI.

I don't want to bash NI, I know the whole thing is probably way more complicated than I can understand and there are reasons behind everything. But I can totally imagine an entry level musician doing exactly what I did, and end upbeing told they have to double up to use what they JUST bought. Being stuck in that situation really warps your perspective and drops your tolerance to 0.

Infuriating is the best way to describe the feeling.

I am glad their sale didn't include komplete in the end. I had intended to buy komplete, but their sale didn't include it this year. It is more bang for buck, but I really don't want / need it and I would just be feeding extra into the scheme.

EDIT:

(11-26-2016, 05:55 AM)Samulis Wrote: [...]This isn't official, but I have been considering getting VSCO 2 Pro converted so that the cost to a beginner is only the $229 and not $429 (which would make EWQL SO Gold cheaper).

[...]

Samulis, please don't take anything in my above message as encouragement to get VSCO2 licensed for the free kontakt player. I was just venting since it's the theme of the thread! I honestly think you deserve your asking price and more for your work. If you do get it licensed with NI, please do so because you think it's right for Versilian and for the library, not because of my story or any other criticism.

[Samulis]

(11-27-2016, 07:06 AM)kaeru Wrote: I will add my little bit to the convo too by saying it's been really hard over the past year waiting for the thanksgiving sale on kontakt, and STILL having to shell out 200$ for it. It contains no instruments of it's own, it's just a license to own libraries. Full msrp on kontakt is 400$ US !!

...
Samulis, please don't take anything in my above message as encouragement to get VSCO2 licensed for the free kontakt player. I was just venting since it's the theme of the thread! I honestly think you deserve your asking price and more for your work. If you do get it licensed with NI, please do so because you think it's right for Versilian and for the library, not because of my story or any other criticism.

Well, Kontakt does contain the factory sets, which aren't bad, especially if you just need a set of drums or a bass or something for that one time you write something a little funky when you're normally an orchestral composer or something... although the ancient Vienna-based orchestral library is pretty poor, particularly the percussion. Kontakt ownership also allows you to edit the patches in detail, which is very useful (provided they aren't locked by the developer).

So there are some benefits... and NI has good reason to charge for Kontakt, as they no doubt spend thousands of (euros?) every year in R&D for the sampler. Kontakt Player download is pretty big if I remember too- no doubt they spend thousands more every year just on bandwidth. If developing for Kontakt Player was free, very few people would be motivated to buy the full Kontakt (pretty much just power users and developers), so they would have to instead have very high licensing fees, and very few people would thus be motivated to create Kontakt libraries. This cycle would continue to the point that Kontakt would be relatively unused.

There is unfortunately virtually no research or numbers that-we-know-of regarding the change in sales following a conversion. However, the evidence is there, as many many companies are repeat-converters, meaning they get one library converted and then soon thereafter another. This means that they would have to be making back the cost of the conversion at least from the conversion and that it has to be cost effective (or else they wouldn't repeat the conversion on their other libraries). Therefore, there is considerable proof that it is a valuable operation, despite no hard numbers to that effect.

[kaeru]

Thank you for putting a new perspective on the whole thing for me, Sam ! I knew there would be more to it than I could figure out. I've also been thinking about what you said in terms of libraries being "all about appearances". The more expensive / on sale libraries, lazily uncompressed libraries and producer endorsed libraries get more attention these days. I thought maybe there would be a way to buy into that very shallow new user market without compromising your ideals or the quality of the product. Have you considered getting VSCO2 reviewed by soundonsound or other pro internet magazines? As a new user myself, I can attest that I spend a tremendous amount of time reading these things before buying anything, and tend to trust them when I no nothing about the topic. Just a thought I had that I really wanted to share with you !

kaeru

[Samulis]

I've tried having VSCO 2 reviewed by some larger magazines, but I haven't had much luck. I guess I should just keep trying e-mailing them until they say yes, hahaha. I have gotten it reviewed by the "trinity" of independent instrument news bloggers- Chris Harris' Samples Spotlight, Don Bodin's Sample Library Review, and Reuben Cornell's The Samplecast.

[Mattias Westlund]

Sam, my rant wasn't really aimed at VSCO2's pricing nor your choice of using Kontakt. I hope you didn't take it that way. I think VSCO2 is priced very fairly considering how much bang per buck it offers, and I would definitely consider it if it weren't for the Kontakt requirement and the fact that I already have so much different stuff that complete orchestral packages don't really interest me anymore. I'm basically looking for libs to augment what I already have -- better brass is high up on my list -- but it seems like these section/instrument specific libraries are all very expensive.

[Mattias Westlund]

(11-26-2016, 05:55 AM)Samulis Wrote: Let's all face it, probably 80% of people in this industry have zero other desires or motivations than to be rich and famous and be perfect clones of x famous film scorer or game scorer (ughh...).

(11-26-2016, 05:55 AM)Samulis Wrote: in an industry where "quality" is everything (particularly for the masses of beginner composers)

You know, this obsession with realism and quality is really ironic... because when the orchestra is buried beneath a shit-ton of drones, pads, percussion and then brickwall limited to death, you can't hear ANY of the detail the libraries offer anymore. The trailer crowd could save a lot of money by just using a GM soundfont instead

[Nayrb]

(11-27-2016, 08:10 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: I'm basically looking for libs to augment what I already have -- better brass is high up on my list -- but it seems like these section/instrument specific libraries are all very expensive.

I have lately been hovering over the various brass libraries available, too. You're right, they are all Kontakt based and all the aforementioned perks and issues seem to apply. The coolest one I've seen and the one that has me drooling the most is Impact Soundworks' Bravura Scoring Brass. The whole thing is still pretty pricey (300 USD I  think) but it works in the Kontakt Player. It's more realistic that I'd opt for their a la carte options which allow you to buy the library in pieces and so augment my existing brass setup; BUT a la carte requires a FULL version of Kontakt 5 So here we are back at the beginning... "The worm eateth its own tail..."

It's dated, but I use Project SAM's Orchestral Brass Classic and I still think it's possibly the best deal for a comprehensive brass library that functions in the Kontakt Player (still up there, though, at $230). It does not have any legato at all though, which is a rather big strike against it.