The State of Space Sci-Fi

[Mattias Westlund]

(08-03-2020, 12:44 AM)Terry93D Wrote: The Witcher, on the other hand, is at least fun

Is it, though? Not sure I agree there. The annoying bard character reminded me of Joxer from the Hercules/Xena shows, and come to think of it, the Witcher feels like one of those 1990's fantasy show where people just walk around in the woods cracking jokes and randomly going on adventures. Not my idea of fun, but tastes differ.

(08-03-2020, 12:44 AM)Terry93D Wrote: The constant repetitions of "destiny" grated on my nerves.

Same here, and the plot made absolutely no sense.

[Terry93D]

(08-03-2020, 10:05 AM)Mattias Westlund Wrote:

(08-03-2020, 12:44 AM)Terry93D Wrote: The Witcher, on the other hand, is at least fun

Is it, though? Not sure I agree there. The annoying bard character reminded me of Joxer from the Hercules/Xena shows, and come to think of it, the Witcher feels like one of those 1990's fantasy show where people just walk around in the woods cracking jokes and randomly going on adventures. Not my idea of fun, but tastes differ.

(08-03-2020, 12:44 AM)Terry93D Wrote: The constant repetitions of "destiny" grated on my nerves.

Same here, and the plot made absolutely no sense.

Well, I thought it was reasonably fun, anyway, and I liked the bard. Not fun enough necessarily for me to want to watch a second season, though. The way it was promoted prior to release... definitely elided the truth, let's say, as to its nature.

[Samulis]

(08-03-2020, 12:03 AM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: Rewatching the Expanse again. For the third time I think? At least the first three seasons; S04 I've still only seen once. This show blows me away. The story, the characters, the setting, the production values and FX. So . Damn. Good. I find myself liking Amos more and more, whereas on previous viewings I felt he was just a creepier version of Jayne Cobb from Firefly. A lot of little layers and nuances there. And that goes for basically all characters, they're all interesting in their own right.

Beratna and sésata, sasa ke?

I actually also got around to (near-)finishing The Expanse finally! I felt it was strongest in S01 and most of S02, then I sort of feel it starts diminishing when things just keep getting bigger and bigger in scope with the heroes getting more and more illogical/mythological plot armor. S04 really just didn't do it for me and I stopped about halfway through; it felt like a major drop in production values/budget (and I think it actually was to be fair). Characters increasingly seem to have arguments for plot reasons rather than logical reasons, and just spend too much time fighting amongst each other to be truly able to pull off the things they do. If people argued like that in real life in the middle of battles or in dangerous situations, they'd be dead. Sometimes it'd seem like whole cultural divides would magically vanish for a few episodes then appear suddenly again just because the plot needed a conflict.

Don't get me wrong, the realism, grit, attention to detail, CGI quality, etc. of seasons 1 and 2, and to a slightly lesser extent season 3, are phenomenal. Easily one of if not the best looking and most immersive space sci-fi shows I've ever seen. At the start it's literally what Babylon 5 COULD have been if it were produced in the 2010's instead of 1990's; the lore is incredibly engaging and writing is remarkably good. Characters seem dynamic and interesting... I just wish it had stayed closer to the initial plot circumstances than snowballing into such a massive plot. It just felt like they forced themselves to 'jump the shark' higher and higher in order to make any of it make sense and it didn't seem all that enjoyable. IMHO, it slowly declined from realistic space adventure to Marvel action movie, with characters becoming less dynamic/3D and more archetypal/2D with each season. Now, perhaps that's how the original book was written; I don't know, I've never read it. 

[peastman]

I enjoyed The Witcher quite a lot. I'm probably exactly the target audience for it, since I had played all the games but hadn't read any of the books. Watching the series added a lot of depth to the games by explaining more of the backstory. I kept finding myself saying, "Oh, so THAT'S what that was about. Now I understand why that character responded the way they did." Having played the games also adds another layer to the series, since you know some of the consequences these events will lead to in a decade or so. Also, they got almost all the characters exactly right.

[Mattias Westlund]

(08-04-2020, 06:02 AM)Samulis Wrote: S04 really just didn't do it for me and I stopped about halfway through; it felt like a major drop in production values/budget (and I think it actually was to be fair).

Definitely agree with this. S04 was disappointing and felt more like a cookie-cutter sci-fi show, as mentioned in one of my previous comments. I'm really hoping they'll get their shit together again for S05 or I will likely bow out as well. While it's commendable that the producers at Amazon decided to bail the show out and continue making it, I'm not entirely sure they realized what they had on their hands, and what made previous seasons great.

(08-04-2020, 06:02 AM)Samulis Wrote: It just felt like they forced themselves to 'jump the shark' higher and higher in order to make any of it make sense and it didn't seem all that enjoyable. IMHO, it slowly declined from realistic space adventure to Marvel action movie, with characters becoming less dynamic/3D and more archetypal/2D with each season. Now, perhaps that's how the original book was written; I don't know, I've never read it.  

Actually, I think it happens the same way in the books. With the Ring network and the Slow Zone and all that. But I'm guessing it's less rushed than in the show. I'm on S03 right now and it's a little jarring how the story suddenly jumps forward by like a year mid-season. The pacing is very off.

[Terry93D]

(08-05-2020, 09:14 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote:

(08-04-2020, 06:02 AM)Samulis Wrote: S04 really just didn't do it for me and I stopped about halfway through; it felt like a major drop in production values/budget (and I think it actually was to be fair).

Definitely agree with this. S04 was disappointing and felt more like a cookie-cutter sci-fi show, as mentioned in one of my previous comments. I'm really hoping they'll get their shit together again for S05 or I will likely bow out as well. While it's commendable that the producers at Amazon decided to bail the show out and continue making it, I'm not entirely sure they realized what they had on their hands, and what made previous seasons great.

(08-04-2020, 06:02 AM)Samulis Wrote: It just felt like they forced themselves to 'jump the shark' higher and higher in order to make any of it make sense and it didn't seem all that enjoyable. IMHO, it slowly declined from realistic space adventure to Marvel action movie, with characters becoming less dynamic/3D and more archetypal/2D with each season. Now, perhaps that's how the original book was written; I don't know, I've never read it.  

Actually, I think it happens the same way in the books. With the Ring network and the Slow Zone and all that. But I'm guessing it's less rushed than in the show. I'm on S03 right now and it's a little jarring how the story suddenly jumps forward by like a year mid-season. The pacing is very off.

Part of the problem I think stems that the first three books were self-contained, until James S.A. Corey---that is, Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck---expanded it into a nine-book series. The impression I get regarding the Amazon series is that the same creative team as the first three is still in place. The problem I think really is in the original material---apparently, the original Cibola Burn takes place entirely on Ilus. There's no Avasarala, Bobbie, or Belter plot originally. Cibola Burn has its fans but apparently among a pretty significant portion of the fandom it's considered the least of the books. So in that respect the tv series is an improvement. I've read the first three books, and the television series is better. The characters are more fleshed out, the storylines are better thought through and more compelling. Comparing the tv and book versions of Ashford, especially, illustrates it---the tv version is so much more interesting then the book version. 

I don't think the production values suffered---maybe there was a little bit more inconsistency from this to that but I felt it was as on par with the previous seasons.

Now, as far as the pacing... this is a flaw in how the tv version was written. The first season only covers half of the first book, Leviathan Wakes. The second season is the second half, plus the first half of the second book, Caliban's War. Then season three, of course, ended up being the last season Syfy commissioned, so the first half is the rest of Caliban's War, and the second half is the entirety of Abaddon's Gate. IMO, there are respects in which Abaddon's Gate is improved by the compression. It's much pacier then the book is---the flaw, though, is that some of the finer points of character are lost. Give this to the cancellation and Amazon pick-up---season four was the fourth book, nothing else. I hope they stick to the book-a-season thing.

[Mattias Westlund]

(08-05-2020, 09:39 PM)Terry93D Wrote: Now, as far as the pacing... this is a flaw in how the tv version was written. The first season only covers half of the first book, Leviathan Wakes. The second season is the second half, plus the first half of the second book, Caliban's War. Then season three, of course, ended up being the last season Syfy commissioned, so the first half is the rest of Caliban's War, and the second half is the entirety of Abaddon's Gate. IMO, there are respects in which Abaddon's Gate is improved by the compression. It's much pacier then the book is---the flaw, though, is that some of the finer points of character are lost. Give this to the cancellation and Amazon pick-up---season four was the fourth book, nothing else. I hope they stick to the book-a-season thing.

That explains a lot in regards to S03! I remember thinking the jump was weird on previous viewings as well, and it does indeed feel more like a shift that would happen between seasons. Or, well, books. Aside from that, though, I think the biggest problem with S03 is the absence of Miller. He was such a strong, likeable (though flawed) character expertly portrayed by Thomas Jane. He left a void behind that no new characters have been able to fill IMO. Sure, he returns in S04* as The Investigator but it's not the same thing (since it's technically not actually Miller).

*Edit: Actually, he returns in S03. Huh. Could have sworn it was 04.

[Mattias Westlund]

OK, I just became aware of the whole Cas Anvar thing. That is just sad and disgusting and I feel bad for liking his performance on the show No, he has not been convicted of anything, and the investigation is still ongoing, but according to the Reddit thread there's a bit too much smoke for it to be no fire. Sheesh. AFAICT S05 is already shot and in post, but it seems unlikely that Anvar will be a member of the cast going forward.

On a brighter note, I just finished rewatching S04 and I must say I liked it much better than on first viewing. I remember the plot as being overly focused on Holden & Co's pointless adventures in the alien structure on Ilus, but to be honest, it's not as bad as I remember it. There's still a lot of stuff going on with Bobbie and Avasarala and Ashford/Drummer at the same time. The thing that jumped out at me, though, is that Avasarala has lost her manners and keeps throwing temper tantrums and dropping the F-bomb in every other sentence. Is this a part of the story (with people suffering from the onset of dementia, basic manners usually goes first) or is it just inconsistent writing? Not sure, but it's jarring and I didn't spot it first time around since there was a big temporal gap between seasons.

All that said, I'm eagerly looking forward to S05 of The Expanse.

[Terry93D]

(08-12-2020, 09:33 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: ~snip

On a brighter note, I just finished rewatching S04 and I must say I liked it much better than on first viewing. I remember the plot as being overly focused on Holden & Co's pointless adventures in the alien structure on Ilus, but to be honest, it's not as bad as I remember it. There's still a lot of stuff going on with Bobbie and Avasarala and Ashford/Drummer at the same time. The thing that jumped out at me, though, is that Avasarala has lost her manners and keeps throwing temper tantrums and dropping the F-bomb in every other sentence. Is this a part of the story (with people suffering from the onset of dementia, basic manners usually goes first) or is it just inconsistent writing? Not sure, but it's jarring and I didn't spot it first time around since there was a big temporal gap between seasons.

All that said, I'm eagerly looking forward to S05 of The Expanse.

Avasarala is much more vulgar in the books, so when Expanse became an Amazon series instead of a Syfy series, the writers wrote her closer to the Avasarala in the books... iirc.

[Mattias Westlund]

Watching season 5 of The Expanse, I have to say I like it so far. S04 was a little too all over the place and S05 is a return to form, even though I can't help but feel that it sort of drags a bit here and there. Sure, it's not an action show, but there's a whole lot of very drawn-out dialogue/emotional scenes, especially involving characters the show insists I should feel something for, but I'm not sure why exactly (like Drummer). The script could have used some tightening up, but generally speaking, I'm happy.

Again, I must say that Amos is a fantastic character and Wes Chatham displays some fine acting chops in this. The subtlety of his performance is amazing and I love the guy.