Do you augment your reverb sends with additional plugins?

[Otto Halmén]

Have you found any uses for other plugins besides the reverb plugins themselves on the reverb sends? I know high and low (or mud region) cutting is often used, but have you ever found something less orthodox useful? I'm thinking things like additional modulation plugins or possibly even saturation plugins, but it could be anything really.

I know Airwindows has a free slew clipping plugin called Distance that was explicitly designed for augmenting reverbs. I'm kind of undecided whether it actually improves the sound in my VO setups, though, so I often end up not using it.

Just curious.

[Samulis]

I often put stereo width/pan controls both before and after my reverb effect so I can have very tight control over the width of the signal going into and out of the reverb.

[Michael Willis]

(03-09-2017, 03:48 AM)Samulis Wrote: I often put stereo width/pan controls both before and after my reverb effect so I can have very tight control over the width of the signal going into and out of the reverb.

I never considered adjusting the stereo width and panning after the reverb, I've always done before. I'm curious about how you do this. What happens before the reverb, and what happens after? Any way that I can imagine doing so after seems like it would cut into the reverb in strange ways, like having a 1st violins section that doesn't echo off of the right wall.

[kneedeep]

That is pretty interesting Samulis. Am I wrong in assuming that you normally want the reverb all the way left and right, the instruments slightly more toward the middle?

What I could imagine is putting a slapback delay in there for anything further back in the room such as percussion, but then again the reverb I use has a pre-delay built in. I need to play with that more.

[Otto Halmén]

(03-09-2017, 05:01 PM)kneedeep Wrote: What I could imagine is putting a slapback delay in there for anything further back in the room such as percussion, but then again the reverb I use has a pre-delay built in. I need to play with that more.

Actually, having looked at multiple impulse responses recorded in the same room at different distances, the truth appears to be the exact opposite. The reverb response for instruments further back in the room is a more uniform whoosh, whereas instruments in front have sparser, more distinct early reflections before the reverb response turns into a uniform tail. These early reflections are roughly equivalent to slapback delays, although most real life studio rooms and music halls have things like acoustic diffusers and non-perpendicular walls to smooth out the early reflections.

[Samulis]

I have found some adjustments to the width of the reverb signal in isolation after the reverb effect can have a fine effect on controlling the role of the stereo signal.

To explore the question in the analogue (using the term in the way defined in Bigcat's "Dealing with Humans" thread) of microphone positions-
http://scoringcentral.mattiaswestlund.ne...299#pid299

And in another light-
http://scoringcentral.mattiaswestlund.ne...440#pid440

If we widen our reverb mix, we will create a more immersive sound, like the reverb itself is coming from the hall around us, in a different phase than the actual sound. In addition, this will clear up the dry and clear center of the mix to be free from excessive mud. I believe that reverb has no place (at least in concentration) in the center of a mix, and letting it exist there in large quantities is asking for mud.

There's some pretty decent acoustical evidence for this-
1. Most instruments are directional and typically oriented towards the audience. When they are not, steps are often taken (e.g. diffusers in the ceiling, rugs placed underneath like with drums and drum sets, etc.) to mitigate the reflections from the ceiling.
2. The further you are from a source of a specific width (e.g. an orchestra), the thinner the stereo image will be if the distance between mics is constant (e.g. why two microphones very close to flute can result in weird panning changes, but two microphones several meters/yards away make it sound stationary).
3. The further you are from a source, the lesser its direct volume and the greater the space influences the sound. To paraphrase Otto, the further you get, the more "digested" the sound is as well - less early reflections and more rounded reflections.

Utilizing reverb is a constant battle between dry, early responses (ER), and room/tail. ER is key to making the room sound realistic, but too much will give the room a poor tone, like a basketball court or a poorly designed auditorium- it is the slap that turns the stomachs of engineers everywhere, but without it, the sound is synthetic. When you close your eyes listening to the mix, you want to be in front of the musicians about 4-5 meters away near the edge of the stage.

If you're working from instruments recorded in small studios for example, you should lay off the ER's and focus mainly on finding equilibrium with the room. These scenarios tend to feature rather wide instruments due to the close situation of the microphones and therefore it can be particularly difficult to mix effectively.

This doesn't mean the center can't have reverb of any kind. In fact, it's very possible there are reflections on the stage itself (e.g. from the ceiling or floor), in particular with percussion and to a lesser extent with upwards facing instruments (e.g. bassoon, tuba). These are primarily early reflections, but the reverb of the hall itself can of course bounce off the back of the stage (many players enjoy this fact).

Take a listen to this live recording from a recording session for VSCO 2-
https://instaud.io/b17

You'll notice that the actual reverb tones are coming from areas other than the trumpet.

Likewise, you may observe the same with the snare and in particular the tenor toms-
https://instaud.io/private/36d955b7d5a1a...0212522a2c

The sound of the tenor toms is particularly interesting- you can very clearly hear the early reflections of this hall (which are quite severe due to a corrugated metal roof above the stage and the flat back of the auditorium). Sometimes, the reverb is stronger in the opposite side than it is in the same side. Listen carefully to the relationship between the position of the early reflections and the main "echo" (it should be noted this is primarily a pair of cardioid LDC's about 3-4 meters/yards from the instrument, so a fair bit of the hall itself is intentionally avoided).

[peastman]

Here's a related question I've been wondering about.  How do you decide what you ought to do?  I've seen that people here are really into reverb, and spend a lot of time worrying about details I can barely even hear.  Should I be worrying about them?  How do I determine the "right" thing to do?

My approach to reverb is really simple.  I pick a preset that seems reasonable for the piece.  If I want it to sound like a small concert hall, I use a "small concert hall" preset.  If I want a huge echoey building, I use a "huge echoey building" preset.  Then I adjust one number for each instrument to set the total amount of reverb, and that's it.

Even with just that, I kind of feel like I'm guessing.  Most of what I hear is just the total amount of reverb.  The difference between "small concert hall" and "large concert hall" is very subtle to my ears.  If I do a side by side comparison and pay really close attention, I can tell there's a difference.  But if you just played a piece of music, I probably couldn't tell which one it was using.

[Otto Halmén]

(03-10-2017, 12:52 AM)peastman Wrote: Here's a related question I've been wondering about.  How do you decide what you ought to do?  I've seen that people here are really into reverb, and spend a lot of time worrying about details I can barely even hear.  Should I be worrying about them?  How do I determine the "right" thing to do?

Mattias Westlund explains orchestral reverb better than I ever could. As to listening for particular details, the main culprits tend to be frequency buildup (esp. in the low mid region), stutter/crackle, as well as metallic ringing and looping echoes. The latter two tend to show up mainly in algorithmic reverbs. Try finding a reverb that has the least amount of these artifacts. Other than that, the size of the would-be room is largely a stylistic choice, although figuring out the size of the orchestra used in your samples can be a good pointer. VSCO 2 is quite small, whereas something like EWQL is fairly big.

[Mattias Westlund]

(03-09-2017, 05:01 PM)kneedeep Wrote: What I could imagine is putting a slapback delay in there for anything further back in the room such as percussion, but then again the reverb I use has a pre-delay built in. I need to play with that more.

Actually, predelay has nothing at all to do with what we think of as delay (echo) effects. Predelay just delays the onset of the reverberated signal by x amount of time.

Also, I think slapback echo isn't something desirable in orchestral music unless you're going for some kind of symphonic rockabilly type of sound

[Samulis]

No examples of said "symphonic rockabilly", Mattias?!?