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RE: Sampling all the instruments from my Yamaha keyboard? - Lee B. James - 03-22-2018
Thanks so much for all the replies!
Lots of info here, but I will hopefully respond later this evening, if not tomorrow. Cheers.
RE: Sampling all the instruments from my Yamaha keyboard? - Lee B. James - 03-24-2018
(03-21-2018, 09:28 PM)Michael Willis Wrote: most midi keyboards respond to midi CC events (including all sorts of stuff like pitch bending, modulation, panning, sustain pedal, attack, etc.). You can automate midi CC events with any decent DAW.
Thanks, Michael. If I've understood you correctly, then that is great news! I am new to DAWs and VSTis. To begin with, I tried adjusting the decay of notes the conventional way but it didn't work, I soon found that I could hardly control notes at all other than simple things like sustain. I did a bit of Googling and what I read seemed to say that VSTis aren't flexible enough to let you change note decays. So if it can be done with MIDI CC events then that's great, because to me it's really important to have fine control over every note.
(03-21-2018, 09:28 PM)Michael Willis Wrote: I'll also suggest that you are possibly too attached to the sound of the Yamaha keyboard; you might try composing without it for a while and see how well you can cope with that.
Actually, it's not the case that I'm attached to the particular sounds of the keyboard. I'm hoping to "leave them behind" really. The reason I want them on my computer is twofold: 1) I have made hundreds of songs with those voices that are precious to me, so I want to recreate them on the computer, and it wouldn't be the same with different instruments. 2) Having a familiar set of sounds is like a tool bag, and you know where everything is in the bag so you can quickly reach for the right tool when you need something quickly.
(03-21-2018, 09:28 PM)Michael Willis Wrote: If you really must sample the keyboard, I can suggest temporarily attaching it to your computer. In a DAW, sequence all of the notes that you want to capture, including variations like different velocities if it indeed makes different sounds for such. If different velocities only result in corresponding volume levels, you can probably get away with a single velocity layer. Wire up the audio line out from the keyboard back into your computer through an interface or sound card. Set up an audio track in your DAW to record the audio, and play through the midi track while recording the audio track. Then you'll have a single audio file with all of the samples, which you can slice up and transform into some kind collection of SFZs or something.
Great advice, thanks!
(03-21-2018, 10:47 PM)bigcat1969 Wrote: Just a thought, if you are using Kontakt, you can do a lot of tweaking of vibrato, legato, ADSR and the like using the WIPs scripts. Konrakt is very tweakable.
You can use this shell if you like and toss samples into it. I can double check it but I think it is fairly functional. Really should do c-pad.
http://bigcatinstruments.blogspot.com/2015/06/b-pad.html
Thanks Joe, that is definitely very helpful and something I may well use. Though unless I'm mistaken, this will only let you tweak the entire instrument, not individual notes in the composition? It's controlling individual notes in the composition that I've been struggling with. You can easily do it with samples, but not with VSTis. (Though I'm going to be looking into using MIDI CC events to achieve that)
(03-22-2018, 01:13 AM)Paul Battersby Wrote: [edit]: Oops. I see Michael already explained the same thing.
It's still appreciated anyway, though!
(03-22-2018, 01:13 AM)Paul Battersby Wrote:(03-21-2018, 07:37 PM)Lee B. James Wrote: may get a sound card and try it.
Do you not have speakers plugged into your computer through a sound card already? I figure if you're using a DAW you must already have a sound card to provide an audio output to your speakers. No?
Well first of all, I only ever use earbuds for working on music. It's specifically the way I like to work and I wouldn't want to change that
But when it comes to speakers, no, I've always just used the regular audio jack on the back of the motherboard, and I hook that up to a small amplifier which powers my speakers. It sounds great and I definitely have no need for a sound card in terms of speaker output.
(03-22-2018, 04:26 AM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: I'm not sure I follow. How do you get more control by sampling your keyboard? Doesn't it allow you to change attack, decay, portamento etc?
You'll have to forgive me, I am very new to all this and still trying to get to grips with how things are done. This conversation is confusing me a little, quite likely because I'm trying to do things the wrong way! I guess I'll learn.
(03-22-2018, 04:26 AM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: Also, sampling all your VSTi's sounds extremely clunky... what if a VSTi has 500 presets? You sample each and every one of them? Makes me wonder what virtual instruments you've been using if none of them has basic controls like ADSR etc
Ha ha. Well I am really just starting out, and so far it's just been a case of sampling whatever I need to work with. But no, the idea isn't to sample everything, including all presets. Just the basic sounds, which gives me something I can work with, then at the end I can go back and hone the sound more precisely.
I guess everyone has their own methods of working, but at the moment, the method I've come up with for myself is two stages:
1. First, the actual composing
2. Then the tweaking of instruments.
So in the first stage, what I want is to be able to get the actual music down onto the computer: including the notes, the general instrument type, and, crucially, the note lengths/decays. So that every single note in the composition starts playing and ends in precisely the right place. So that it actually sounds pleasing.
Then, in the second stage, I can worry more about WHICH piano to use, and panning, reverb, etc. All those things are secondary.
But (in my mind at least) in the first stage, I need maximum control over the instrument. And VSTis do give you less control than samples in terms of actually composing a piece of music.
(03-22-2018, 09:46 AM)Samulis Wrote: If you want a commercial solution, I'd tepidly recommend 'Samplit'…
Thanks for all the advice, that's really helpful and I'll consider that
Samplit sounds great. Do you happen to know if it can automatically detect where the original samples are placed on the keyboard and how they're distributed - so that it ONLY retains the original samples rather than the modulated versions? (If that makes sense?)
(03-22-2018, 09:46 AM)Samulis Wrote: …These interfaces can utilize ASIO, a protocol for drivers which lets the sound card communicate with the computer much faster than the typical DirectSound, MME, and WSAPI protocols that are used by consumer and onboard sound cards. The result is roundtrip latencies as low as 5-10 ms, rather than the typical 100+ ms onboard sound cards do, which makes playing virtual instruments live much, much easier since they will respond much faster to your commands.
This is interesting because latency is something I seriously do not want. Having used a variety of different VSTis now, I have found that some of them are so slow, they are unusable, sometimes it seems like they're as much as 100ms out of sync, which makes playing impossible.
However, other VSTIs seem far less laggy, with barely any perceptible delay. (Generally, the smaller and less RAM-intensive, the less delay there seems to be.)
So I'm not sure whether I have a latency problem or not. Yes, I do get delays with some instruments, but not with others, which surely suggests that my motherboard is handling things fine and it's the VSTis that are dodgy?
I'm likely going to get a cheap sound card anyway, for the sake of MIDI input/output. Will any sound card with ASIO solve all latency problems? Or is it the case that the more you spend the better the latency will be?
RE: Sampling all the instruments from my Yamaha keyboard? - Samulis - 03-25-2018
(03-24-2018, 11:58 PM)Lee B. James Wrote: Samplit sounds great. Do you happen to know if it can automatically detect where the original samples are placed on the keyboard and how they're distributed - so that it ONLY retains the original samples rather than the modulated versions? (If that makes sense?)
The way it works is that it sends the MIDI signal to the keyboard of the note you want (say, Middle C, otherwise known as MIDI Note 60, or either C3 or C4 depending on manufacturer). While it does this, it records whatever comes into the audio input of your interface until it fades to a certain volume OR a time has elapsed (so you don't record a looped sound forever for no good reason). It knows the note it sent, so it maps it to that pitch inside the software. When you go to export the instruments, all the notes should be at the pitches they are supposed to be.
So no, you have to manually figure out where the original samples are. I don't think there's a software in the world that could reliably do that task to be honest. You can make a good guess, but there's no 'tag' to know unless you understand exactly how the sampler functions.
My recommendation is to 'over-sample', say, chromatically. You could then try to find the 'original' sample pattern (typically in the middle of a range of identical/repitched samples, but not always!), then delete the repitched notes and stretch out the original samples like the original keyboard, but, so long as you don't have tight RAM limitations, there's not really any downside to just leaving it over-sampled at wholetone (every other halfstep) or chromatic, especially if you're just recording one or two velocities for a few seconds each.
(03-24-2018, 11:58 PM)Lee B. James Wrote: This is interesting because latency is something I seriously do not want. Having used a variety of different VSTis now, I have found that some of them are so slow, they are unusable, sometimes it seems like they're as much as 100ms out of sync, which makes playing impossible.
However, other VSTIs seem far less laggy, with barely any perceptible delay. (Generally, the smaller and less RAM-intensive, the less delay there seems to be.)
So I'm not sure whether I have a latency problem or not. Yes, I do get delays with some instruments, but not with others, which surely suggests that my motherboard is handling things fine and it's the VSTis that are dodgy?
I'm likely going to get a cheap sound card anyway, for the sake of MIDI input/output. Will any sound card with ASIO solve all latency problems? Or is it the case that the more you spend the better the latency will be?
I tend to recommend the Focusrite Scarlett series, the 2i4 being the most minimal. They sound quite decent (I sampled instruments with 1st generation Scarlett interfaces for years) and are inexpensive in a market where you could easily spend north of $1,000. However, they are slightly more expensive than some competitors for the same I/O, but one might be able to argue they sound a little better than some of those as well.
If you want to shop around a bit, there are also similar I/O options in the same price range ($100-200) from Behringer (U-Phoria UMC204HD), Presonus (AudioBox iTwo & Studio 2|6 USB 2x4), Steinberg (UR22mkII), Tascam (US-2X2), Mackie (Onyx Producer 2-2), M-Audio (M-Track 2X2M), and probably half a dozen other models from various manufacturers.
At the end of the day, it's mostly subjective, but spending a little extra often means better internals, which equates to better sound capture and reproduction. Honestly, with what capturing an old keyboard, it's not like you're going to be pushing any of these cards very hard.
Even the cheapest of these 'entry level' professional devices is leagues better than the majority of consumer sound cards in terms of signal-to-noise ratios, linearity, clock accuracy, and preamp performance. While these don't matter as much recording from line signals, if you ever want to record yourself talking into a mic or playing an instrument live, any of these will make a significant difference over what's on your motherboard, not to mention let you use XLR-cable microphones, including powered condenser microphones.
RE: Sampling all the instruments from my Yamaha keyboard? - Mattias Westlund - 03-25-2018
(03-24-2018, 11:58 PM)Lee B. James Wrote: Thanks, Michael. If I've understood you correctly, then that is great news! I am new to DAWs and VSTis. To begin with, I tried adjusting the decay of notes the conventional way but it didn't work, I soon found that I could hardly control notes at all other than simple things like sustain. I did a bit of Googling and what I read seemed to say that VSTis aren't flexible enough to let you change note decays. So if it can be done with MIDI CC events then that's great, because to me it's really important to have fine control over every note.
I'm not sure where you read that or what virtual instruments you have tried but VSTi's can be anything from pure "preset players" with hardly any adjustable parameters beyond volume and panning, to fully featured monster synths that let you tweak things far beyond what you can even in hardware. Saying "VSTis aren't flexible enough to let you change note decays" could not be farther from the truth.
Also, to be clear, a sampler that you run in your DAW is also a VSTi. A VSTi is a software instrument (hence the "i") based on the VST plugin standard and they exist in the thousands and come in all shapes and forms. Some are software emulations of analog or digital synths, while others are sample based or even dedicated samplers that will let you load sampled instruments in various formats. One can not say that one kind is generally better than the other, just like you can't say that a guitar is automatically superior to a trumpet. It all depends on what you're trying to acheive.
RE: Sampling all the instruments from my Yamaha keyboard? - Lee B. James - 03-25-2018
(03-25-2018, 01:09 AM)Samulis Wrote: So no, you have to manually figure out where the original samples are. I don't think there's a software in the world that could reliably do that task to be honest. You can make a good guess, but there's no 'tag' to know unless you understand exactly how the sampler functions.
…so long as you don't have tight RAM limitations, there's not really any downside to just leaving it over-sampled at wholetone (every other halfstep) or chromatic, especially if you're just recording one or two velocities for a few seconds each.
Well I just like the idea of having the most efficient files possible, and if I "oversample" the files might be three times bigger than necessary. (And possibly far more if I "oversample" the velocities too.)
I'm not saying it would be easy, but I'm sure it must be possible for software to detect where the original samples lie. Just a matter of comparing the waveforms, although I'm sure there's more to it than that in practice.
(03-25-2018, 01:09 AM)Samulis Wrote: Even the cheapest of these 'entry level' professional devices is leagues better than the majority of consumer sound cards in terms of signal-to-noise ratios, linearity, clock accuracy, and preamp performance. While these don't matter as much recording from line signals, if you ever want to record yourself talking into a mic or playing an instrument live, any of these will make a significant difference over what's on your motherboard, not to mention let you use XLR-cable microphones, including powered condenser microphones.
First of all, thanks for the sound card recommendations.
Bearing in mind I know nothing about sound cards... When you say that even entry-level "professional devices" are leagues ahead of consumer sound cards, are you talking specifically about brands like Focusrite, Behringer, Presonus, Steinberg, Tascam, Mackie, and M-Audio? Truth be told, I woudln't know any of these brand names apart from a consumer-grade one.
You mention recording. But that isn't something I do. I don't sing or play an instrument. All my music is on the keyboard, and now in the DAW. So who knows, maybe a consumer-grade sound card would suffice? I'm definitely looking for low-budget options.
(03-25-2018, 01:02 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote:(03-24-2018, 11:58 PM)Lee B. James Wrote: Thanks, Michael. If I've understood you correctly, then that is great news! I am new to DAWs and VSTis. To begin with, I tried adjusting the decay of notes the conventional way but it didn't work, I soon found that I could hardly control notes at all other than simple things like sustain. I did a bit of Googling and what I read seemed to say that VSTis aren't flexible enough to let you change note decays. So if it can be done with MIDI CC events then that's great, because to me it's really important to have fine control over every note.
I'm not sure where you read that or what virtual instruments you have tried but VSTi's can be anything from pure "preset players" with hardly any adjustable parameters beyond volume and panning, to fully featured monster synths that let you tweak things far beyond what you can even in hardware. Saying "VSTis aren't flexible enough to let you change note decays" could not be farther from the truth.
Thanks, Mattias. I hope it doesn't come across as though I don't like VSTis. I think VSTis are fantastic, and I'm very happily building a collection of them. My only problem with them has been the (apparent) lack of control between DAW and VSTi, which I'm still figuring out.
VSTis are probably more flexible than I'm giving them credit for, and I could be using them wrong (it's early days for me) but all I know right now is that I can't dynamically adjust the volume of notes with any VSTi I've tried - I can only specify the starting volume, but once that note begins playing I can't get that volume to change without changing the master volume of the entire VSTi. It seems that in order to do this I'm going to need to send MIDI CC commands to the VSTi, which I'll go away and figure out how to do in my DAW. This isn't really anyone else's problem!
RE: Sampling all the instruments from my Yamaha keyboard? - Samulis - 03-25-2018
(03-25-2018, 02:59 PM)Lee B. James Wrote: Well I just like the idea of having the most efficient files possible, and if I "oversample" the files might be three times bigger than necessary. (And possibly far more if I "oversample" the velocities too.)
I'm not saying it would be easy, but I'm sure it must be possible for software to detect where the original samples lie. Just a matter of comparing the waveforms, although I'm sure there's more to it than that in practice.
That's what makes it impossible. You see, different samplers and ROMplers map samples differently. Imagine one where the samples are recorded every C and G. There are some where they simply stretch the note up to the note below the next sample (lazy, but saves a little space/time). There are also some that do the opposite. Then there are some which stretch it both ways to the halfway point, and round that position up. Then there are some that do that, but round the position down. Then there are people that just "do it by feel" and may stretch one note more than usual and another less because that note isn't as good and they don't want it to appear as much.
Every simple way you could do it in software would be wrong in one of those cases. The only way to know which is right (unless you have whoever engineered the sampler/ROMpler on hand) is to sample them all, and then pick what sounds best. Alternately, you can just pick any one of the 'identical' (just repitched) sounds at random, then stretch it to fill that whole area, but technically that is not correct, as if the sampler/ROMpler has a very bad converter, it could be introducing unwanted artifacts.
I'm going to give a 95% prediction the piano doesn't actually have sampled velocity layers but instead puts a lowpass filter on the loudest sound to make it sound softer when played softly. These are easy to set up in the software sampler of choice, and to tie them to the velocity of the note.
(03-25-2018, 02:59 PM)Lee B. James Wrote: First of all, thanks for the sound card recommendations.
Bearing in mind I know nothing about sound cards... When you say that even entry-level "professional devices" are leagues ahead of consumer sound cards, are you talking specifically about brands like Focusrite, Behringer, Presonus, Steinberg, Tascam, Mackie, and M-Audio? Truth be told, I wouldn't know any of these brand names apart from a consumer-grade one.
You mention recording. But that isn't something I do. I don't sing or play an instrument. All my music is on the keyboard, and now in the DAW. So who knows, maybe a consumer-grade sound card would suffice? I'm definitely looking for low-budget options.
Yes, any one of those brands will produce decent hardware- some better than others, or so folks say.
Consumer sound brands (Creative, Asus, etc.) and consumer sound offerings from those companies have poorer tolerances, lower performance in all areas, poorer conversion, lack quality preamps, do not support ASIO (the thing which gives very low latency), and are not built to last. There is a noticeable difference- I started out using a top-of-the-line Prosumer card from Creative and even the Focusrite Scarlett absolutely smashed the performance of that. Furthermore, Consumer cards almost universally don't have MIDI input and output, which means they would never work if you want to use keyboards from your computer (unless you want to buy a MIDI interface- MOTU makes a few small ones). If you ever decide to get decent headphones, professional devices have good amplifiers designed to handle better headphones. Lastly, consumer cards are generally designed to "modify" and "tweak" the sound going in and coming out of your system, while professional cards are generally designed to be as 'transparent' as possible, that is, to not affect the sound in any way.
Most consumer cards now are for gamers. They tend to go into a PCIe slot and have 1/8" headphone jack-style plugs on the back, occasionally some RCA jacks (the red and white round ones with the single pin in the middle). Professional cards are almost always external, USB-type devices which you can put on your desk (rather than buried behind your computer), which have 1/4" headphone jack-style connectors for headphones and outputs, and combination XLR-1/4" connectors for the mic preamplifier/inputs, so you can plug both microphones and other equipment into them. Almost all of them have MIDI capability (always look at pictures of the back to check for the MIDI ports). For what you get out of the box, a consumer card is over-priced and under-performing 99.9% of the time, while the professional devices tend to be a bit closer to their equipment cost.
My rule of thumb is- if it isn't on Sweetwater, it's probably not a piece of pro audio equipment. Granted, they don't carry everything on there (especially some of the more boutique brands), they for the most part don't carry any consumer products.
I strongly believe that if you want to do a decent sampling of anything, you will need a decent interface. I'm not advocating you go out there and spend $700, but any one of those interfaces in the $100-200 range I mentioned (or didn't mention) would suffice.
Regarding recording, you never know where music will take you. If you want to score games/films or write for clients, you will need to have a skype call at some point. If you want to make a youtube video tutorial some day when you know a lot and might wish to share some of that knowledge, you will need a decent mic and a low-latency interface. Maybe you might get a physical piano or inherit a fretless zither or psaltery from someone and decide to sample that, or record it for a track. Maybe an old friend will mention their quartet needs someone to record them and you just happen to have your trusty interface. Six years ago I would have said the same exact thing as you, but now I own several thousand dollars in recording equipment and go around the country sampling things. Music is a game of opportunities which play out over time. The more you can capture, the more you can justify calling it your career to the IRS.
RE: Sampling all the instruments from my Yamaha keyboard? - Lee B. James - 03-26-2018
Samulis, Thank you so much for all the advice and information. It's all really helpful and interesting.
It never occurred to me that my Yamaha keyboard might be "cheating" by low-pass filtering the samples for different velocities instead of using different samples! Ha ha
I suddenly feel a little short-changed, but I guess that makes sense as it saves a lot of ROM space.What you said about the different methods of mapping samples was fascinating - though I wasn't quite able to follow what you said?
The only method I understand is the simple method of speeding up/down a sample to simulate adjacent notes. For the record, I'm pretty sure that's how my Yamaha keyboard does it because it said so in the manual of a similar keyboard I used to own - I believe it was every 3rd note sampled, with each being sped up/down to simulate the one above and below.
The other methods you mentioned, I don't understand - are you saying they use some kind of combination of the sample above and below mixed together? (Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't that just sound like 2 notes, or possibly even create phase effects?) And what do you mean about "rounding up/down"? Hope I'm not being a nuisance by asking these questions but I do find it fascinating.
Regarding buying a sound card, I may well want to record in the future, but right this very moment it's not a requirement, so I'm probably going to hold back a little and see how things develop before I buy a sound card. I've just come out of a difficult phase in my life where work was painfully slow, a bunch of deals fell through, I had no money, and life was a struggle (had to sell the car etc.). So at the moment I'm being very careful how I spend money. That's why I'm so grateful to BigCat, and any audio company that creates affordable / freeware music products like Versilian - it is fantastic stuff and greatly appreciated!
As for the future, things have just started turning around quite a lot over the last couple of months. I'm a designer by trade and historically my work has always been 100% visual: logos, marketing, illustrations, etc. But the company I'm with has just taken on some new big clients and starting to get more video projects, and, to my amazement, a couple of music jobs have just come my way, so I am actually just about to cross over into the realm of professional music, which is obviously a dream come true for someone who's spent his life composing in his spare time. At the minute, I'm working on a "Harry Potter"-style orchestral theme for a short animated trailer, which is great fun. So, as they say, "watch this space"! LOL
RE: Sampling all the instruments from my Yamaha keyboard? - Samulis - 03-26-2018
The colloquial term for the process of slowing/speeding the samples is 'stretching'. For example, you might have a sample for C, E, and G each- how would you stretch that? A cheap way is simply to stretch each sample up to the nearest adjacent note (so C stretches to Eb/D#, and E stretches up to F#)- no gaps, no difficult coding to handle exceptions, but the difference between, say F# and G, would be quite noticeable. Likewise you could do it where all the samples stretch down to a note above the nearest sample. On the other hand, stretching the C up to D, the E down to Eb and up to F, and the G down to F# works, but you could also do the C up to C# and the E down to D instead. Each keyboard maker/instrument mapper may decide how to stretch the samples. If it's done manually and the samples aren't equidistant, then it is one heck of a job to try to figure out which are the originals when all you have is a recording of the samples being played back, if you really want to sample JUST the original samples.
In my C-G example, here are all the different ways you could map just those two samples (and imagine how many options there are if you have a third sample)-
C -> F# | G
C -> F | F# -> G
C -> E | F -> G
C -> Eb | E -> G
C -> D | Eb -> G
C -> C# | D -> G
C | C# -> G
It might seem obvious, pick C -> Eb, then E -> G, but some may pick other options, or if, for example, there is a B-natural also sampled below the C, or perhaps the G sample is not very good so you want to limit how much of the keyboard it is on, it is likely that you would want to alter your pattern.
The way the repitching ends up working perceptually is that it basically makes the instrument sound physically "smaller" or "larger", as if the entire instrument were put in a shrink-ray for a second. The more it is stretched, the more pronounced the effect. It is hard to imagine how an instrument sampled once per octave might possibly sound remotely real, for example. Regardless, every note you play within that stretch range will sound and appear exactly identical, just played slower or faster. There is no way to know which of all of those options is "the one" unless someone tells you, although it's possible to make an educated guess with enough patience. Even with that, you still need to sample every single pitch and make an analysis of the samples before you can make that call.
That's the problem- machines can't make guesses, they can only work off of the implicit instructions you give them. It can't magically "figure out" which sample is the one to keep, it has to be told implicitly, "keep this one if it meets these criteria."
If you don't mind cheating a little, it is possible to pick ANY pitch within a stretched range and stretch that note to match the original stretch range (although once again, to find that range you will either need to sample the whole thing chromatically anyway, or spend some time recording the input and looking at the waveforms that appear to figure out which keys mark the start and end of each sample stretch range). Theoretically that should work out just fine, although you may end up missing some of the original sample's specific tone if you pick too far from the real sample, especially since the kind of pitch resampling that happens in modern software samplers is better (even if not by much) than what was commonly used in hardware keyboards.
If you want to use tools like Samplit to automate the sampling process with MIDI, you will no matter what need something to send and receive MIDI. You can buy cheap USB MIDI interfaces that only handle MIDI if you want (I think there are some out there that are only like $20?).
RE: Sampling all the instruments from my Yamaha keyboard? - Lee B. James - 03-26-2018
Thanks Samulis. I didn't fully understand what you wrote but I'm going to read it through carefully when I get the time because it is fascinating.
Also, just to note that I will never use headphones or IEMs because I just do not like wearing either of them (I've tried). Earbuds is the only thing I can tolerate!