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+--- Thread: Retro midi machine! (/showthread.php?tid=138)
RE: Retro midi machine! - Samulis - 11-11-2016
(11-11-2016, 10:14 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote: Um... it seems like these tracks are kind of left-heavy, are they not? At first I thought it was just the way they were mixed on a midi level, but looking at the L/R waveforms I'm starting to think that there might be something off with either the mixer itself or the cables I used for hooking it up to my main machine for rendering.
I did notice that in the Yamaha track at least. I was listening sort of quietly, so it was hard to tell. It's also quite possible the MIDI files may be part of it too.
RE: Retro midi machine! - Mattias Westlund - 11-11-2016
(11-11-2016, 10:35 PM)Samulis Wrote: I did notice that in the Yamaha track at least. I was listening sort of quietly, so it was hard to tell. It's also quite possible the MIDI files may be part of it too.
Possibly, yeah. On a second listen it felt like was going deaf on my right ear, though, which is what alerted me to the problem. I need to check with some other sound sources to make sure.
RE: Retro midi machine! - Samulis - 11-11-2016
(11-11-2016, 10:45 PM)Mattias Westlund Wrote:(11-11-2016, 10:35 PM)Samulis Wrote: I did notice that in the Yamaha track at least. I was listening sort of quietly, so it was hard to tell. It's also quite possible the MIDI files may be part of it too.
Possibly, yeah. On a second listen it felt like was going deaf on my right ear, though, which is what alerted me to the problem. I need to check with some other sound sources to make sure.
Maybe try putting a sine wave or mono signal through the same cable (e.g. eliminate all panning in the track or just one centered instrument if samples are mono).
RE: Retro midi machine! - Samulis - 11-14-2016
So, I sorta outdid myself, haha. Here is the track on a few devices-
1. Boss DS-330 - essentially a Roland device stenciled with Boss. The similarities to Soundcanvas, for example, are rather striking.
https://instaud.io/Cmr
2. Technics WSA1R - "Acoustic Modelling Synthesizer" from the late 90's, pretty much Technics last synth-sampler-thingy they ever made. It has a nice "General MIDI" mode feature- one button and it will automatically comply with the GM standard. Another button, and you get full access to hundreds of extra stuff.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/SamulisRandom/Alliance-Shootout/Alliance_TechnicsWSA1R.mp3
3. EMU ESI-4000 using 32 MB "Proteus 2: Orchestral +" Soundbank. This is the largest single orchestral bank available for the ESI-4000 by EMU. There are some scattered instruments outside of it that compile to a greater library, but they are not yet in a single bank. I had a bunch of fun/trouble getting everything to work here, but it came out ok, aside from the tremolo strings being an octave too high (oops) and probably one or two other issues. Unfortunately I have yet to find a decent choir for the ESI-4000, and the bank doesn't include one, nor does it include a full-fledged percussion section, so I pulled a "Rippy" and used the DS-330 to do all the percussion and those bits I couldn't do on the ESI-4000 without spending several hours digging through CD's of content.
Original Panning- https://instaud.io/Cms
Custom Panning- https://instaud.io/Cmt
Oh yeah, my ESI-4000 doesn't have any reverb or effects, so I added some crummy Garritan Reverb on it so it would blend with the crummy Roland reverb on the DS-330. I do have a dry mix if that would interest you, as I realized after mixing I may have been slightly too liberal in application.
4. Ensoniq Mirage (DMS-8) using factory floppies. The Mirage was one of the first 'affordable' PCM samplers at a mere $1700. This was a huge PITA to make, as each instrument had to be individually sent through the instrument (it is monotimbral), not to mention, I had to dig through about 25 floppies and slowly load samples only to find they weren't what I needed... but I think it really paid off. For the mid 1980's, I am incredibly impressed with the sound quality of this sampler. Below I have included several "stages" of the song- a completely flat, un-mixed version, just as one would get from the mono stems (oh, I forgot to mention that- the earlier editions, mine included, were mono). Then, a version where I've used the exact original panning instructions, then that with two different reverbs, then my own mix based on orchestral seating positions with reverb. I also had to be kinda creative with the percussion, which was extremely limited.
Raw: https://s3.amazonaws.com/SamulisRandom/Alliance-Shootout/Alliance_RAW-Mirage.mp3
Original panning: https://instaud.io/Cmx
OP w/ reverb A (a plate from EWQL Spaces): https://instaud.io/Cmv
OP w/ reverb B (something algorithmic I had sitting around): https://instaud.io/Cmw
Custom Panning w/ Reverb B: https://instaud.io/Cmu
5. Just for fun- VSCO 2 Pro with lots of little adjustments.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/SamulisRandom/Alliance-Shootout/Alliance3_VSCO2Pro.mp3
Interestingly enough, VSCO 2 is actually the 2nd cheapest option here after the DS-330, both original MSRP-wise and current 2nd hand markets.
RE: Retro midi machine! - Mattias Westlund - 03-31-2017
A little update. Finally added the AWE64 card, which gave me some additional options (like I needed more!). This machine now has FIVE sound cards and it took a bit of shoehorning when finding free hardware resources for everything.
Here's what it sounds like, using various patches from all five onboard synths.
Yeah it's a bit noisy, and there's like five different hall reverbs going on. But... it's not that terrible is it?
RE: Retro midi machine! - Otto Halmén - 03-31-2017
This is awesome! :O I'm insanely jealous of your setup.
As to reverb, I wouldn't be too concerned. Chances are they're based on similar algorithms anyway (esp. if they're halls), as there were only so many ways of doing digital reverb back in the day. It's probably not impossible to match them reasonably, especially if they all allow for tweaking individual parameters via SysEx.
Also, your demo slightly reminds me of Vangelis - El Greco Movement 7, which was used in a mod for Heroes of Might and Magic III, one of my all time favorite games.
RE: Retro midi machine! - Samulis - 03-31-2017
This is like my childhood shoehorned into one epic machine... great little demo Mattias!
RE: Retro midi machine! - kmlandre - 03-31-2017
So I'm curious- what's the legality of sampling the output from these cards and offering them?
I ask because ISW has a fun retro 8bit library, but there's very little orchestral-ish sound in it. Something like the sounds off of these cards would fill a nice little niche.
And we have some folks here with a least a modicum of talent and experience with community based sample libraries, so... ;-)
Kurt
RE: Retro midi machine! - Samulis - 03-31-2017
I highly doubt it's legal unless it's actually a synthesis chip (e.g. original Soundblaster)- samples are copyright, which means they will not be in the Public Domain for another... like 80 years (IF copyright law doesn't keep extending itself due to Disney).
However, it's not overly hard to make a library with quality based on these early sets (for example, many of the older soundfont sets are quite close to this)- just record close, in mono, and if you want extra effect, reduce quality settings (e.g. many cards were only 22.05 kHz sample rate, and many weren't 16 bit- there were a number of 12-bit, even 8-bit cards; that helps explain some of the noise issues).
RE: Retro midi machine! - Mattias Westlund - 03-31-2017
Yeah, there would be clear legality issues. Which is a shame because in case of the Soundscape, these patches exist nowhere else expect in maybe other equally antiquated Ensoniq hardware, and the company isn't around anymore. Just like E-MU they were gobbled up by Creative in the late nineties, and then dissolved. So Creative owns the IP, but clearly isn't doing anything with it. At least E-MU's stuff lives on in various other shapes and forms.
But as you say, you could easily get in the ballpark at least sample-wise using other stuff. I say "at least sample-wise" because there's obviously more to these onboard synths rather than just the samples. There's envelopes and dynamic filtering and modulation and stuff going on which is harder to emulate properly. Even if you could get the raw samples out of the Soundscape and load them into a modern sampler, it still wouldn't sound the same unless you spent a lot of time setting things up to sound and behave like the original hardware. And then there's the effects of course, which also play a large part in defining the character of these synths.
As for the APS and the AWE64, the default banks (in sf2/sbk format) are probably floating around on the web somewhere if you care to look for them. The Waveforce uses XG, and IIRC there used to be a custom made XG soundfont available for free which is similar but not exactly the same. There's also a free version of the Yamaha S-YXG50 software synth, which uses the same patches but has a larger ROM and higher sound quality (which may not actually be desirable in this case). Plus, like you say, if you wish you could go ahead and downsample more modern stuff and thin out the multisampling to like one or two notes per octave, add really short loops etc.
Maybe I should create a Sonatina Retro Edition
